Schwartz v. Lawende

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Swanson's report states:

The Police apparently do not suspect the 2nd man whom Schwartz saw on the other side of the street and who followed Schwartz.

The first man was on the club side of the street. The second man was on the other side of the street. Following Schwartz would require him to begin from a position north of Schwartz. Hampshire Court's Berner St entrance was on the other side of the street, to the north of the board school, and had no closing time.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, just sheltering out of the wind in the doorway to light his pipe.

I see a bit of shelter from rain, but very little from wind.

[GBinOz]

I see a bit of shelter from rain, but very little from wind.

As a pipe smoker, I can comment that your body, the door and the return would provide adequate shelter from the wind.

[Lewis C]

George,
I mean sexist for this time, not that time. Pipeman runs off in fear, but Stride is gullible enough to go into the darkness with a man who just threw her down. Smart man, dumb woman.

In this particular theory, the man who threw her down isn't the same man that she went into the darkness with.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As a pipe smoker, I can comment that your body, the door and the return would provide adequate shelter from the wind.

Oh dear, George! Are you telling us you're in the habit of walking the streets at night, smoking your pipe?

I don't have a pipe, but I too walk the streets at night ... half-tipsy.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In this particular theory, the man who threw her down isn't the same man that she went into the darkness with.

In this particular theory, yes, but at that point I was referring to the police account, as is. Sorry for not being clearer.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Israel Schwartz ... on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street ...

Just as important as why she would have been standing in the gateway, is why the man tried to pull her into the street. A man seeking the services of a prostitute would not be pulling her in that direction, right? Was he trying to evict her from the yard? If it were true that she was standing at the gates, that is, at the threshold to Dutfield's Yard, why would the man go berserk and throw her to the ground? Wess said he had once found an unknown man and woman talking at the gates, and he responded by closing the gates. Alternatively, had the man been the Ripper, is he really going to commence his 'work' by throwing the intended victim, in full view of a witness?

The man tried to pull the woman into the street - perhaps in this phrase we get a glimpse of the real truth - Stride was 'sprung' well inside Dutfield's Yard, up to no good. Failing that theory, perhaps the truth was that Stride was at the gates, but no throwing onto the footway occurred. Where are the corresponding injuries?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

I was referring to the report in the Echo 1 Oct:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

Cheers, George

Thanks George, thats the one I saw and it seems to be a second hand account of chasing the subject, someone who saw the chaser.. as it were. Heres something....what if he actually sees Louis and Issac[s] and one isnt chasing the other, maybe just slower than him. The quarter to 1 timeframe for activities is found in the Arbeter Fraint coverage of that night, above in the press, its suggested by Issac K and Heschberg, and Spooner is around that time as well. If that was really the case, then the statements that should be reviewed are from Louis, Morris, Joseph, Mrs D, Israel. That is basically the roster of the onsite management on that night at that time. I dont find it odd that we should see some subjective statements about what was seen, or when,... potentially losing a job...maybe a room, maybe a club,...sobering thoughts for these men.

[Michael W Richards]

I just wanted to add that youll note that I suggest what was on their minds was self preservation due to an unforseen event, and not how they could conceal a murder. I dont see these men as the likely killer, I do however believe he came from that club property. And at 12:45, Israel Schwartz said he saw the woman and a man tussling with the woman falling to the ground. If this really happened in the passageway, as Israel left the club via the side door, all those sources got it right. He almost saw her actual murder...or maybe he did see.

[GBinOz]

Thanks George, thats the one I saw and it seems to be a second hand account of chasing the subject, someone who saw the chaser.. as it were. Heres something....what if he actually sees Louis and Issac[s] and one isnt chasing the other, maybe just slower than him. The quarter to 1 timeframe for activities is found in the Arbeter Fraint coverage of that night, above in the press, its suggested by Issac K and Heschberg, and Spooner is around that time as well. If that was really the case, then the statements that should be reviewed are from Louis, Morris, Joseph, Mrs D, Israel. That is basically the roster of the onsite management on that night at that time. I dont find it odd that we should see some subjective statements about what was seen, or when,... potentially losing a job...maybe a room, maybe a club,...sobering thoughts for these men.

Hi Michael,

I quite agree - hearsay at best. According to Kozebrodski he was sent out by Diemshitz, and the latter followed soon after. Eagle reported that Diemshitz left with Jacobs, so there were plenty of running men in that area that night.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks George, thats the one I saw and it seems to be a second hand account of chasing the subject, someone who saw the chaser.. as it were. Heres something....what if he actually sees Louis and Issac[s] and one isnt chasing the other, maybe just slower than him. The quarter to 1 timeframe for activities is found in the Arbeter Fraint coverage of that night, above in the press, its suggested by Issac K and Heschberg, and Spooner is around that time as well. If that was really the case, then the statements that should be reviewed are from Louis, Morris, Joseph, Mrs D, Israel. That is basically the roster of the onsite management on that night at that time. I dont find it odd that we should see some subjective statements about what was seen, or when,... potentially losing a job...maybe a room, maybe a club,...sobering thoughts for these men.

What if those who believe this theory checked it against the evidence?

Echo: The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

Not a club member, right?

Morning Advertiser: A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up.

Kozebrodski was a club member, and Diemschitz was club steward, and therefore a member.

[Michael W Richards]

What if those who believe this theory checked it against the evidence?

Echo: The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

Not a club member, right?

Morning Advertiser: A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up.

Kozebrodski was a club member, and Diemschitz was club steward, and therefore a member.

I believe that one must be hesitant to broadly accept what is said by club staff on this particular occasion. There are some very real story conflicts with them and almost everyone else there. Issac Kozebrodski is basically a teenager, and many of them are young men...one thing they all have in common is their belief that anarchy, not just principled debate, can further their Socialist ideals. What does that sound similar to? Terrorists? These are not what we can assume were god fearing law abiding citizens, they were discontents. Characterize them as they behaved, and youll see that there are reasons to question their motives, and therefore their truthfulness.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe that one must be hesitant to broadly accept what is said by club staff on this particular occasion. There are some very real story conflicts with them and almost everyone else there. Issac Kozebrodski is basically a teenager, and many of them are young men...one thing they all have in common is their belief that anarchy, not just principled debate, can further their Socialist ideals. What does that sound similar to? Terrorists? These are not what we can assume were god fearing law abiding citizens, they were discontents. Characterize them as they behaved, and youll see that there are reasons to question their motives, and therefore their truthfulness.

If this is what you believe, then why try to explain away Wess's comments as mere hearsay? We somehow go from the man pursued being the murderer according to witnesses, with a pursuer of known identity, to the man pursued going to the police and claiming to be an innocent passerby, and his pursuer never being identified. How could anyone have observed what Schwartz described and conclude he was the murderer? So, who lied?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

I quite agree - hearsay at best. According to Kozebrodski he was sent out by Diemshitz, and the latter followed soon after. Eagle reported that Diemshitz left with Jacobs, so there were plenty of running men in that area that night.

Cheers, George

Ive wondered if, in that instance when Eagle mentions a Jacobs...cant recall the source,...and other quotes say Issac[s],... if we dont have the full first and surname of Diemshitz's partner right there. I find the statement from Issac Kozebrodski, apparently taken within an hour or so of the discovery, very compelling evidence that he did not go searching with Louis. And I find that allowing that misconception to remain anyway is compelling evidence about the statement integrity of Louis. He allows for the misunderstanding, Issac is not there to speak up, and a Mr Jacob Issac[s] perhaps is not even mentioned. We know that Louis did summon Issac to the passageway, and we know by virtue of Issac's statement that Louis or some other member sent him out to get help, we know that Spooner sees 2 men 1 of which is Louis and that Eagle is about to see PC Lamb as Issac sees them and joins them. Thats 3 search parties...and how many are mentioned at the Inquest?

And we know one other thing......all these activities could not have started at, or just after 1am. The alleged discovery time. We are looking at 10-15 minutes of activities that took place upon the discovery, and we have a PC and a medical professionals times to bracket the allowable length of time,...its just the math really. It seems odd to be able to discern some facts by using math and science yet still have the mythical-lore type elements remain so strong. They dont always co-exist.

[Michael W Richards]

If this is what you believe, then why try to explain away Wess's comments as mere hearsay? We somehow go from the man pursued being the murderer according to witnesses, with a pursuer of known identity, to the man pursued going to the police and claiming to be an innocent passerby, and his pursuer never being identified. How could anyone have observed what Schwartz described and conclude he was the murderer? So, who lied?

Well, technically they are hearsay arent they? Secondhand account? Wess heard....we have a lot of people that "heard" things here, some that heard nothing, and some who had selective sight and hearing apparently.