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Schwartz v. Lawende

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  • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

    We could also divide the killer's movements moments before he cut Stride's throat into the following...


    1) He had just left the club by the side door to leave for home

    2) He had just left the side door to get some air before returning inside the club

    3) He had just returned back to the club

    4) He had just arrived at the club

    5) He was walking south past the kill site and noticed her

    6) He was walking North past the kill site and noticed her

    7) He has been with Stride for a longer period of time outside, having arrived at the club with her

    8) He was looking for her specifically

    9) He was heading to a residence in the yard and noticed her

    10) He was leaving a residence in the yard and noticed her

    11) She was outside, waiting for him to leave the club


    The question then becomes...where do all of the known witnesses/persons of interest/suspects fit?


    RD
    ​​​​​
    I would consider adding possible movements in and out of the Arbeter Fraint offices, but this is a commendable effort at enumerating the possibilities.
    Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

      But Schwartz never said he saw Stride being murdered. He only described what he saw take place when he was at the scene. How can he be held responsible for things that took place after he left?

      c.d.
      I'm not holding him responsible for things that happened after he left, but I am holding him responsible for telling a story that is compatible with the known facts. Perhaps you could tell us what you suppose happened after he left, that is compatible with those facts?
      Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

        I'm not holding him responsible for things that happened after he left, but I am holding him responsible for telling a story that is compatible with the known facts. Perhaps you could tell us what you suppose happened after he left, that is compatible with those facts?
        Ah, the polite snarkiness. You gotta love it. Why does that feature in so many of your posts? Are you incapable of discussing the case without it being adversarial and in your face?

        But since you asked...my personal view is that Schwartz simply witnessed a street hassle and that Jack came along after he left and that Stride voluntarily went with him back into the yard where he killed her.

        Can I account for all facts? No, but I have never seen a scenario that does. By the way, you seem very reluctant to put forth your own version of events but instead seem to prefer tearing down what others post. Is there a reason for that?

        c.d.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

          Perhaps Yaffa also took offence at the man shouting 'Lipski' at him. We could suppose it was not Krantz's intention to kill her - only to retrieve the stolen items and give her a good scare - unfortunately Yaffa took things too far. Is it still too much of a stretch? How does the motive compare to the man described by Schwartz - why didn't he just shove her to the ground and go and find another prostitute?

          Regarding the Echo report, I'm wondering how people suppose Wess came to be told the name of the pursuing man?

          I also find it interesting that Krantz makes no mention of Yaffa, at the inquest. This is the relevant section in Der Arbeter Fraint ...

          From excitement he [Comrade Louis Dimshits] jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
          There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
          “Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”


          ​Gilyarovsky's immediate reaction is to run into the printing and editor's offices. Why there and not upstairs, where Eygel and many others are?

          Another point is the paper's estimate of the murder time ...

          The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.

          What was the source of that knowledge?
          I would say that it's enough of a stretch that I would think it not especially likely, but not so much of a stretch that I would reject it entirely as a possibility. As for BS man, I would say that if he existed, and I think he probably did, it's more likely that either he didn't kill Stride, or he killed her for some other reason than the motive that you mentioned.

          The estimate given by the paper may have just been a rough estimate. It couldn't have been too far from 12:45.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

            The Just-in-Time-Jack consoles damsel in distress theory is a bit too Hollywood for my liking.
            I shouldn't have said "came along", because it could be that he was already in the area, but then went to her after he saw her thrown down.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

              ...my personal view is that Schwartz simply witnessed a street hassle and that Jack came along after he left and that Stride voluntarily went with him back into the yard where he killed her.
              So, to round out your theory a bit, Stride stands at the gateway for some unknown period, then the BS man comes along and roughs her up. He goes off in a huff, and Stride picks herself up before continuing to stand at the gates. Then, almost as suddenly, JtR comes along and somehow entices her to go into the darkness of Dutfield's Yard. Almost immediately he kills her, before being interrupted by something, and he too leaves the scene. All the while that Stride stood at the gates, she went unwitnessed by club attendees and neighbours.

              Is that about right?

              Can I account for all facts? No, but I have never seen a scenario that does. By the way, you seem very reluctant to put forth your own version of events but instead seem to prefer tearing down what others post. Is there a reason for that?
              Very recently I put forward the theory that Yaffa killed Stride, with (possibly inadvertent) help from Phillip Krantz. Did you notice? I'm also the first, as far as I know, to put forward the theory that Israel Schwartz and Leon Goldstein were one and the same man - possibly the boldest new Ripper-related theory since Lechmere/Cross. Feel free to critique either theory in whatever style you deem appropriate.
              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                I would say that it's enough of a stretch that I would think it not especially likely, but not so much of a stretch that I would reject it entirely as a possibility.
                I'm roughly the same, but it would be nice to know more about Yaffa.

                As for BS man, I would say that if he existed, and I think he probably did, it's more likely that either he didn't kill Stride, or he killed her for some other reason than the motive that you mentioned.
                Are you hinting at Michael Kidney?

                The estimate given by the paper may have just been a rough estimate. It couldn't have been too far from 12:45.
                Schwartz, Wess, and Arbeter Fraint all mentioned ~12:45. I doubt this is just coincidence.
                Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                  I shouldn't have said "came along", because it could be that he was already in the area, but then went to her after he saw her thrown down.
                  While two men run off in fear, the damsel in distress is enticed by the promise of a hot cup of tea inside the club, by a man who'd been standing on the street with nothing more than a pipe to hide his identity.

                  Some see this as plausible scenario, but I wonder if others might think it just a bit sexist?
                  Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                    While two men run off in fear, the damsel in distress is enticed by the promise of a hot cup of tea inside the club, by a man who'd been standing on the street with nothing more than a pipe to hide his identity.

                    Some see this as plausible scenario, but I wonder if others might think it just a bit sexist?
                    Hi Andrew,

                    I don't see it as sexist, particularly for that time.

                    Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.

                    Cheers, George
                    They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                    Out of a misty dream
                    Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                    Within a dream.
                    Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                    ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                      Are you hinting at Michael Kidney?
                      I think that if BS man killed Stride, he most likely was JtR, in which case the motive was probably the same as what it usually was for him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                        Hi Andrew,

                        I don't see it as sexist, particularly for that time.
                        George,
                        I mean sexist for this time, not that time. Pipeman runs off in fear, but Stride is gullible enough to go into the darkness with a man who just threw her down. Smart man, dumb woman.

                        One may reasonably suggest that Pipeman ran in the direction of Schwartz, because Schwartz ("the intruder") was his target, but that means admitting to oneself that the two men were likely known to each other. That would play havoc with some mental models of JtR.

                        Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.

                        Cheers, George
                        So, JtR had just finished having an after-hours drink with the licensee of the Nelson?
                        Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.
                          Forgot to ask, how did Wess learn of Parcelman's name, but seemingly not the police?

                          The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

                          There is no indication in any police report that they learned the identity of a man who pursued anyone, but according to your theory, they should have suspected the second man. Swanson's report states:

                          The Police apparently do not suspect the 2nd man whom Schwartz saw on the other side of the street and who followed Schwartz.
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                            Hi Andrew,

                            I don't see it as sexist, particularly for that time.

                            Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.

                            Cheers, George
                            Where is this quote from Wess that he follows anyone, he says at the Inquest he started to leave at 12:15 and first went into the yard. Then he and his brother left via the front door.......(question: did someone then lock it before Eagle shows up?). I havent seen, or recall, seeing that Wess chases anyone. If he left at 12:30 and the Pipeman sighting isnt until 12:45...?

                            Are people basing this on a quote attributed to the club secretary.. "The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

                            Ive seen it referred to as "Wess chases" before here, although not in your quote above, just making sure that something erroneous isnt taking hold.
                            Last edited by Michael W Richards; 02-12-2024, 06:22 PM.
                            Michael Richards

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              Where is this quote from Wess that he follows anyone, he says at the Inquest he started to leave at 12:15 and first went into the yard. Then he and his brother left via the front door.......(question: did someone then lock it before Eagle shows up?). I havent seen, or recall, seeing that Wess chases anyone. If he left at 12:30 and the Pipeman sighting isnt until 12:45...?

                              Are people basing this on a quote attributed to the club secretary.. "The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

                              Ive seen it referred to as "Wess chases" before here, although not in your quote above, just making sure that something erroneous isnt taking hold.
                              Hi Michael,

                              I was referring to the report in the Echo 1 Oct:

                              A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

                              In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.


                              Cheers, George
                              They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                              Out of a misty dream
                              Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                              Within a dream.
                              Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                              ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                So, JtR had just finished having an after-hours drink with the licensee of the Nelson?
                                No, just sheltering out of the wind in the doorway to light his pipe.
                                They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                                Out of a misty dream
                                Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                                Within a dream.
                                Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                                Comment

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