Schwartz v. Lawende

[NotBlamedForNothing]

She was also not seen by Eagle when he went up the yard a few mins earlier .

Are you sure about that?

Eagle: In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing.

All that sort of thing is really just a euphemism for drinking.

The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter...

By his own timing, Eagle returned to the club between the times given by Smith and Schwartz. I'm tempted to say, "it's not rocket science".

Interesting that the hand on her shoulder pushes her back into the passage, which is suggestive. Why did the man want to quarrel in the darkness, and about what?

[Michael W Richards]

Baxter didn't call Fanny Mortimer, either. What can we conclude from that?

Fanny didnt see Liz alive at all that last half hour, and that is likely why she is not "invited" to the Inquest. She really serves as a corroborative baseline to all the other witnesses regarding the activities, or lack thereof, on the street during that time... and luckily we have secondary verification for her being at her door to the street at least some of that half hour. Goldsteins statement via translator on Tuesday night does that. We know she was there at least some of that half hour....its important to remember that when guessing about when she went in and when she came out. Assuming she spent most of the remaining time inside runs contrary to her claim she was at her door "nearly the whole time". So although we dont know specific times when she was in or out....(presuming that she is inside when Israels event allegedly occurs doesnt make it so), we can say based on Goldstein that in at least in 1 element of her story she was where she said she was at the time she said she was there. Thats helping establish some credibility, for me anyway.

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting that the hand on her shoulder pushes her back into the passage, which is suggestive. Why did the man want to quarrel in the darkness, and about what?

They are in the passageway....a drunk thugs thinks she is there for soliciting...he suggests they go into the yard, she tells him to bugger off she is not working that night...he gets surly, pokes her in her chest hard, with her back to the wall inside the gates, she feels a bit intimidated, goes to head out onto the street again, he grabs her scarf from behind, twists to tighten it, and with his other hand pulls her back into that dark spot, and while choking her, he slips his hand into his pocket, pulls out a knife and slides it across her throat...letting go of the scarf at the same time.

I think Liz may have been killed because she didnt handle brushing off a drunk in a way that didnt piss him off. But there are a few ways this could have happened....what I just wrote is one, another is that she is killed by someone from the club because they thought she was spying on them for the police, another is that she had a meeting set up...a date, or a cleaning job inside the club, and that some drunk onsite didnt know that and was trying to make her get lost...maybe someone who didnt like the fact that she would work for Jews punishes her. Maybe she "hippy-lipped" off to the wrong guy. Maybe Kidney has her killed because she left him that week so she could have a relationship with a local jew, and he couldnt handle that. He does say with the ability to place police at certain locations he thought he could catch the man....was he meaning known Jewish gathering places? Was he inadvertently revealing his own prejudices? Was he the real BSM?

So many routes, and the only 1 I see that leads nowhere is that this was a murder done by the same serial mutilator who killed Annie.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

They are in the passageway....a drunk thugs thinks she is there for soliciting...he suggests they go into the yard, she tells him to bugger off she is not working that night...he gets surly, pokes her in her chest hard, with her back to the wall inside the gates, she feels a bit intimidated, goes to head out onto the street again, he grabs her scarf from behind, twists to tighten it, and with his other hand pulls her back into that dark spot, and while choking her, he slips his hand into his pocket, pulls out a knife and slides it across her throat...letting go of the scarf at the same time.

Why doesn't he just find another prostitute? They're everywhere.

I think Liz may have been killed because she didnt handle brushing off a drunk in a way that didnt piss him off. But there are a few ways this could have happened....what I just wrote is one, another is that she is killed by someone from the club because they thought she was spying on them for the police, another is that she had a meeting set up...a date, or a cleaning job inside the club, and that some drunk onsite didnt know that and was trying to make her get lost...maybe someone who didnt like the fact that she would work for Jews punishes her. Maybe she "hippy-lipped" off to the wrong guy. Maybe Kidney has her killed because she left him that week so she could have a relationship with a local jew, and he couldnt handle that. He does say with the ability to place police at certain locations he thought he could catch the man....was he meaning known Jewish gathering places? Was he inadvertently revealing his own prejudices? Was he the real BSM?

Killing Stride because she wouldn't get lost would be an extreme reaction. As for Kidney, he might have committed a crime of passion had he caught her with another man or had good evidence that she had one, but not just because she left him that week. It wasn't the first time she had done that.

So many routes, and the only 1 I see that leads nowhere is that this was a murder done by the same serial mutilator who killed Annie.

Even disregarding Mitre Square, I struggle with the idea of a drunk killing Stride in near darkness, unheard by anyone nearby.

[Michael W Richards]

Let me ask you this.....is a scenario like one that has a very drunk bully reacting aggressively, impulsively, to rejection by a woman far fetched? I dont think that Liz was there to solicit myself, but maybe men there might have. And I believe she could hold her own, she was experienced out there. I can easily see a poorly judged act that took 2 seconds and couldnt be undone.

[c.d.]

I see too many red flags that argue against the whole drunk bully scenario:

No argument or yelling heard by anyone in the club;

No evidence of Stride being roughed up;

Clothes not torn;

No knife wounds to the body.

I would expect some of these things if her killer was in a state of anger. Instead, we have a quiet, efficient cut to the throat. Too me, that indicates someone who has done this before.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I see too many red flags that argue against the whole drunk bully scenario:

No argument or yelling heard by anyone in the club;

No evidence of Stride being roughed up;

Clothes not torn;

No knife wounds to the body.

I would expect some of these things if her killer was in a state of anger. Instead, we have a quiet, efficient cut to the throat. Too me, that indicates someone who has done this before.

c.d.

Remember I said 2 seconds of bad judgement and a flash of anger, not some angry drunken thug. What if..he first tries to be smooth and proposition her, then firmly pokes her in the chest to emphasize he means business, then she tells him to get lost and turns her back to walk away. He grabs her scarf from behind, pulls on it and twists it, she chokes, loses her balance... shuffling backwards, and he runs a knife across her throat and lets go of the scarf. She falls on her side, slightly behind the open gate, her legs curl into her body and she bleeds out. The bruises on her shoulders, the scarf being twisted and tightened and nicked along the same line as the cut on her throat, the fetal position of an injured person, the fact that there is no indication she moved at all once on the ground. I think that scenario fits the evidence fine.

[c.d.]

Are you completely dismissing Schwartz's account in your scenario?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Are you completely dismissing Schwartz's account in your scenario?

c.d.

I think Ive mentioned this lots before, but I could believe Israel Schwartzs story if the real action actually took place in the passageway, not on the street. Israel leaves the club by the side door....(checking to see if his wife had moved a few meager items 12 hours earlier doesnt seem reasonable to me, an immigrant Jew just outside a club where immigrant Jews just finished a large meeting, someone known by Wess....)... because I think he likely attended part of the meeting or went there after it ended. He sees Liz and a thug slightly inside the gates near the wall, he hears the man threaten her as he passes, the man tells him effectively to get lost...he leaves quickly, thug cuts Liz.

Let me ask you a question cd...........how did anyone know that Israel Schwartz had been there at all? Who knew to seek him out? Hows this...."He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter."

So someone brought him in.

Its almost certain that the interpreter is Wess, so how does Wess know to seek out Israel, and that he was there at that time, and saw something... if no-one else saw Israel or anyone in his story? Accompanied by a friend, not someone was sent for to translate. Wess came in with Israel.

Does Wess go to find Israel to accompany him in? Again, who knows on that Sunday afternoon that someone named Israel Schwartz passed by the club and saw the victim get manhandled just before being found? No-one saw Israel, or heard him, or BSM, or Pipeman...so how is it that someone sought him out to bring him in for a statement...without knowing that he was there?

[c.d.]

Let me ask you a question cd...........how did anyone know that Israel Schwartz had been there at all? Who knew to seek him out? Hows this...."He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter."

So someone brought him in.

I think the most obvious answer is that it was Schwartz who sought out someone to go with him not the other way around. Not really sure I understand your question.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

You missed an important thing, its almost certain that Wess interprets for him. Wess is the friend that accompanies him to the station. Why would you imagine that he would seek out someone to go in with him, does he indicate that once he heard the news he decided to come forward? Or was he asked to come forward, by someone who by all accounts should not have known Israel Schwartz was even there. Wess had gone home. No-one saw or heard Israel or anyone in his story. Who knew that afternoon that Israel was there? Just himself...supposedly. And BSM and Pipeman I guess.

So...the real question is, was he approached to come forward or did he approach someone? If Wess sought him out.......then we have some serious cred issues, for multiple statements.

[c.d.]

Why is so hard to believe that he approached someone to go with him since he didn't speak English or was advised to do so?

I am still not really getting this. Did Wess simply walk up to random people and say hey by the way by any chance did you see a woman get murdered tonight?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Why is so hard to believe that he approached someone to go with him since he didn't speak English or was advised to do so?

And that someone just happened to be Wess, who runs a business at that address? Someone who he already knows from previously meeting him in Paris, as I recall?

I am still not really getting this. Did Wess simply walk up to random people and say hey by the way by any chance did you see a woman get murdered tonight?

No, I agree....you arent getting it. Ok, on Sunday afternoon who knew that Israel Schwartz was there and saw an altercation with the soon to be victim? Only Israel, at that time, right? He hasnt told anyone yet. When he does decide to come in, many hours later, how is it that he already has someone with him to translate...and how likely is it that it would randomly be William Wess? Someone he knows, and someone who happens to work at that very address he saw his event?

c.d.

Or, is it more likely that Wess went to Israel to encourage him to come forward and speak on his behalf...maybe with some minor story tweaks. Granted I dont know who went looking for whom, but I do know that IF someone went to Israel, then they would have reason to suspect he was there and maybe saw something. Or they would have reason to get some help from someone "theatrical" maybe.

[c.d.]

My guess (and no, I don't have proof) is that Schwartz approached club members, related his story and either expressed a desire to go to the police or was encouraged to do so. He was then told an interpreter would be helpful or even necessary and Wess was suggested. If you find Wess suspicious as a translator, how many translators of Hungarian do you think the club had available?

Could Wess have approached Schwartz and induced him to lie in a murder investigation? Sure. But I have no reason to believe that that was the case.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

My guess (and no, I don't have proof) is that Schwartz approached club members, related his story and either expressed a desire to go to the police or was encouraged to do so. He was then told an interpreter would be helpful or even necessary and Wess was suggested. If you find Wess suspicious as a translator, how many translators of Hungarian do you think the club had available?

Could Wess have approached Schwartz and induced him to lie in a murder investigation? Sure. But I have no reason to believe that that was the case.

c.d.

I think that the very content of Schwartzs statement allows for suspicion...just happened to be there,...(we dont know where he actually lived that morning)....checking on his wife, (who must have already finished moving their few belongings almost 12 hours previous to that time),... an immigrant Jew who just happens to be outside an immigrant Jews Mens Club after a large meeting that night,..coincidentally....seeing events and people that not one other person in that area can corroborate,....conveniently......who decides after an entire day has passed that he needed to go to the police,.... he seeks advice from someone about getting a translator and miraculously is advised to get William Wess to do that for him,....a man who happens to work at the very same location his "incident" happens at and is someone he already knows from meeting him in their past.......

Isnt it reasonable to entertain the idea that Wess knew Israel was there that night, that Wess might have heard about when Israel left or maybe what he says he saw when he left, Wess approaches him at his new home, talks him into going down to the station and making a statement, that Wess, either with Israels agreement or not, indicates that a likely assailant was seen with Liz and neither of them were on Club property at the time. Israel says he was looking to see about his wife and the move,..but isnt it logical that the reason we see a "theatrical" Immigrant Jew just outside a club that entertained 200 or so immigrant jewish men that night, at 12:45 in the morning, is because he was at the club himself?