Bowyer´s inquest testimony

[Jeff Leahy]

Interesting idea about the Carmen.was is Sagar who said it wasn't until the Kelly murder they got a solid lead, could that be a link?

Yes yes indeed he did. I'm hoping to pick up on this in the new year with Karsten Giese who has made some interesting speculation. Of course there are problems, why did it take them so long to track down the witness? If the witness was already aware of the family he would have known they were of Jewish origin.

But your correct something happened at Millers Court that changed the killers pattern... that would be true which ever suspect you favour

Yours Jeff

[Observer]

Hook line and sinker

Been a while since I visited, however, I see Pierre has all the usual suspects still firmly in place on the end of his line !

hahaha

[Elamarna]

Steve.
Hi and thanks. Firstly i have not abandoned my window theory; i e just been doing some of pierres homework be ause i need to see if his theory is more accurate than mine.


Never crossed my mind that you had, the knob is very suggestive, although for all the reasons we have been over time and time again is not conclusive.
however in all probability it is a door knob

I didn't make ve the table lower bc the crack up f light looks to be coming from behind that lump of 'flesh' sitting at the edge of the table. Meaning, most of the door is going to be to the right of the table, and UNBARRICADED.


I base my opinion on the photograph, the view point of the camera is slightly to the right of the light strip, we are looking at an angle over the table.This suggests taking the various optical effects into account that the table ( in Pierre’s view) is covering at least one third of the door but no more than half.

If you move the bed closer to the partition door, the door becomes even more unbarricaded.

Agreed, this must be why the bed size has been changed over the last few days, it is the only way of getting the head of the bed nearer to the partition.

I think ive found the flaw in my thinking. You know i think mjk3 shows a door and window but I couldn't resolve the distance between the corner of the wall and the window. It seemed a lot larger distance than the 9 or 12" i was using for the measurement of the brick. But im thinking the same type of brick that they used between the two windows was used also at the corner of the wall. The distanc, as ive indicated, is 1.5 ft. This means, the door is 1.5 feet off the edge of the corner.

Have you considered that if we are looking at the view you and I generally agree on, that the door could be open, lack of light from such an opening could be because either the passage way gives little light at that time of day OR maybe the light has been blocked off to help with the exposure, this could be achieved by suspending a sheet or such like in the doorway. this would certainly help your distances, the light strip would become a centre parting between two curtains

If you have read the post by Jeff, you will see they have looked at this before and reconstructed the room in a studio. apparently the result favoured our view.

[Elamarna]

Jeff,

you are not stepping on my toes at all, i appreciate comments and help from seasoned members.

Interesting idea about the Carmen.was is Sagar who said it wasn't until the Kelly murder they got a solid lead, could that be a link?

From what i have seen of your views, i think maybe we are both looking in the same direction, at the same kind of suspect.

elamarna

[Robert St Devil]

Steve.
Hi and thanks. Firstly i have not abandoned my window theory; i e just been doing some of pierres homework be ause i need to see if his theory is more accurate than mine.

I didn't make ve the table lower bc the crack up f light looks to be coming from behind that lump of 'flesh' sitting at the edge of the table. Meaning, most of the door is going to be to the right of the table, and UNBARRICADED.

If you move the bed closer to the partition door, the door becomes even more unbarricaded.

I think ive found the flaw in my thinking. You know i think mjk3 shows a door and window but I couldn't resolve the distance between the corner of the wall and the window. It seemed a lot larger distance than the 9 or 12" i was using for the measurement of the brick. But im thinking the same type of brick that they used between the two windows was used also at the corner of the wall. The distanc, as ive indicated, is 1.5 ft. This means, the door is 1.5 feet off the edge of the corner.

[Jeff Leahy]

Many thanks Jeff

that’s the view I have been trying to make since this thread started.

Have said this is not a new idea but the OP appears to have missed it.

Instead, we have the suggestion of a conspiracy, the continual manipulation of data to fit a theory; in the last 2 days, we have seen the bed position and length change 3 times.
This followed the view that the testimony of Dr Phillips had been misinterpreted and in fact meant the head of the bed, not the left hand side, was close against the partition wall.

Hi Elamarna

Sorry to step on your toes, i admit I haven't following the thread since the beginning..

We had to reconstruct the bedroom in a studio, and its pretty cramped with cameras...So we build't fause walls that could be removed to focus the various lenses.... Not that we ever got it spot on...a representation

But your doing a great job

Yours Jeff

PS Re the witness....Sarah Cox describes dorset street as having a number of Carman making deliveries to market 5 am. This would be around the time that Diddles the cat woke Mrs Prater 3.45 am who was in the court at 5.30 who saw people harnessing horses. So what if the police traced a man working in Dorset street, a Carman, who bumped into someone leaving Millers court?

[Elamarna]

Dear Pierre

On Sunday in post 205 on this thread you said

"3. And, the perhaps most important question if you are thinking from the perspective of the killer, since he knew what he was going to do to the body of Kelly during at least more than one and a half hour:”


I replied:


“1) where do you get the time span of plus one and a half hours from.”


your reply was

“I don´t remember the source so I will search for it and publish it here. “

several hours later I asked

“And please do find the source for the 1.5 hours”

your reply was

“Don´t tell me to find things Steve. Instead, forget about the 1.5 hours. If you are not a pitbull, which I believe you aren´t.”

That response was uncalled for, I had politely reminded you that you had said you would back your statement up.

Can I respectfully ask that You supply the message board with the source for this data which in your own words.was "perhaps most important question" with regards to why a barricade was needed.

[Elamarna]

Many thanks Jeff

that’s the view I have been trying to make since this thread started.

Have said this is not a new idea but the OP appears to have missed it.

Instead, we have the suggestion of a conspiracy, the continual manipulation of data to fit a theory; in the last 2 days, we have seen the bed position and length change 3 times.
This followed the view that the testimony of Dr Phillips had been misinterpreted and in fact meant the head of the bed, not the left hand side, was close against the partition wall.

[Jeff Leahy]

Having just skimmed the posts this might have been mentioned before so i apologies in advance if I'm saying something already concidered.

But in discussions years ago the positioning of the furniture in the room was discussed at length. Indeed it had some importance when we reconstructed the room and the same applied then.

But perhaps whoever photographed the room had need to move various itoms around to fit his clumsy equipmrnt focus his lenses (Depending on depth of field) and possibly also to maximise light (Depending on time of day)

As the murder scene was not considered as it is today.... Then moving items may not have seen as critical as getting a good exposure.

So perhaps the bed was moved by the person taking the photograph? My opinion is it would have been against the partition and Jack attacked MJK from the front through her sheets

Yours Jeff

[Elamarna]

Robert.

That's a nice layout. On the whole I like it , but would however move the table about 6 inches nearer the bottom wall. As it stands it does not correspond to the postioned in Mjk3. More of it must cover the door.

I have a few points:
Firstly I don't feel that this correspods to Pierre's latest suggestion at all.
His bed must stretch further towards the partition to allow for it to be close besides the wooden partition.
His last plan has the bottom of the bed away from the wall and actually level with the bottom of the table. That postioned is inconsistent with the view in MJK3
One assumes this is to allow the head of the bed to be nearer to the partition wall. This however would also put the body in the wrong postion in relation to MJK3.

Unless we have evidence for a bed 6 .5 long, I feel we must use a figure which we have a source for. So should be 6.3 at most a figure of 6ft could equally be used .

Agree about width of table.

Finally the last figures I saw for the room were 9x15.

However your plan would generally fit MJK3, if it was used as a barricade very well!
WHICH OF COURSE IT WAS NOT.

STEVE

[Pcdunn]

Good research! So as a single bed I'd be looking at about 180cm (roughly 6ft) for Mary's bed. Would you agree with that?

Thank you, David. Yes, that seems likely, given Mary's height of five foot seven. The only problem might be the size of the room, in which case the bed might have been a bit shorter.

While we're on the subject of Mary's furniture, in the photo marked MJK1, the table beside the bed seems smaller than the table apparent in the MJK3 photograph. Do you think they are the same table, or perhaps a washstand and a table?

[Robert St Devil]

Steve, David, Pierre.

This is a more accurate evaluation of what Pierre is proposing based on some general assessments of furniture dimensions. The door is 3 ft. Pierre's illustration does not account for the width (depth) of the table.

Feel free to place the secret door where you choose.

[Elamarna]

Pierre,

I was just looking at your last plan.(post 248)

You have the end of the table level with the end of the bed.

This is very different from the previous 2 plans, posts 200 & 201.

Although i disagree with your idea of the door being a barricade, you have always produced plans which line up the bed and table as shown in MJK3.

This latest plan would appear to be inconsistent with the respective positions of bed and table as portrayed in MJK3.

Does that not suggest that the latest plan is unsustainable.

regards

Elamarna

[Elamarna]

For clarification.

I would say anything up to current length is acceptable. That would be 6ft 3 inches .
For anything more than that we would need a data source showing that length of bed was
Commonly used/available In 1888 London.

Interesting enough the smaller the bed is the more likely the view point in MJK3 lines up with the lightstrip whatever that may be. Unfortunately the smaller bed makes Pierre's reading of Dr Phillips testimony unlikely.
Elamarna

[Robert St Devil]

David orsam. Did you see the drawings that i posted on Page 10? The door to the staircase appears to be u der the arch, near marys door. I was thinking that the reports on the murder of kitty ronan might shine some light on the upstAirs layout, staircase location, etc. Gate idea is good.