Bowyer´s inquest testimony

[David Orsam]

So having gone to nearly 9 ft we have gone back to 6ft 6 and now that is back at where I guess most of us assumed it was in first place.

For the sake of clarity, I think you mean that Pierre is at 6 ft 6 but that the rest of us are at around 6ft (or at least I certainly am!)?

[Elamarna]

Hi Pcdunn

That's really useful.
To be honest before yesterday I had not really thoght much about bed size.
I just assumed they were approx the same size as today.

So having gone to nearly 9 ft we have gone back to 6ft 6 and now that is back at where I guess most of us assumed it was in first place.
Unless someone provides evidence of different sizes in 19th century London. Would seem 6ft is a good figure to use.

[David Orsam]

I tried a brief search to determine how long beds were in the 19th century, but found little. This link is very interesting: https://historymyths.wordpress.com/t...-were-shorter/

Wiki merely says: "While the "double" size appears to be standard among English speaking countries, based on the imperial measurement of 4 ft 6 in by 6 ft 3 in (137 cm x 190 cm), the sizes for other bed types tend to vary."

Apparently beds averaged 6 feet long in past centuries, not that much off from the average bed of today. Of course, there was great variation for cots and beds used by babies, children, and perhaps Tom Thumb.

MJK's bed seems to have a headboard (can't see the foot of it to know if it also had a footboard, so we don't know if it has four posts), but also seems to be typically rope-strung and with a thin mattress. Probably no larger than a single bed of today.

Good research! So as a single bed I'd be looking at about 180cm (roughly 6ft) for Mary's bed. Would you agree with that?

[David Orsam]

David

thanks,

I am waiting for the reply to my questions in my long post.
am very interested in the replies

seems i am not with you on the list of shame yet

If he sees you talking to me again you might get there!

[Pcdunn]

Beds weren't shorter in the past, experts say

He said "We all have to guess" and "Your guess is as good as mine".

As much as it's possible to understand anything Pierre is saying then, yes, I would say he has admitted to guessing the bed length, but without, of course, providing any data about average bed lengths in the nineteenth century to support that guess.

I tried a brief search to determine how long beds were in the 19th century, but found little. This link is very interesting: https://historymyths.wordpress.com/t...-were-shorter/

Wiki merely says: "While the "double" size appears to be standard among English speaking countries, based on the imperial measurement of 4 ft 6 in by 6 ft 3 in (137 cm x 190 cm), the sizes for other bed types tend to vary."

Apparently beds averaged 6 feet long in past centuries, not that much off from the average bed of today. Of course, there was great variation for cots and beds used by babies, children, and perhaps Tom Thumb.

MJK's bed seems to have a headboard (can't see the foot of it to know if it also had a footboard, so we don't know if it has four posts), but also seems to be typically rope-strung and with a thin mattress. Probably no larger than a single bed of today.

[Elamarna]

David

thanks,

I am waiting for the reply to my questions in my long post.
am very interested in the replies

seems i am not with you on the list of shame yet

[David Orsam]

Has Pierre said he guessed the bed length?

He said "We all have to guess" and "Your guess is as good as mine".

As much as it's possible to understand anything Pierre is saying then, yes, I would say he has admitted to guessing the bed length, but without, of course, providing any data about average bed lengths in the nineteenth century to support that guess.

[Elamarna]

David

we covered the same issues i think.

Has Pierre said he guessed the bed length?

[Elamarna]

Pierre,

pleased you answered,
I do have a few questions to ask with regards to your plan

Your first plan, the white one, showed a large gap between the head of the bed and the wall, you have decided this plan was wrong. Fair enough.

You then provided a plan which appeared to show the bed extending the full width of the room.

I asked you how big you thought the bed was, you told me to measure it myself, which i did, using the figure you provided for the room.
That is a width of 2.85m which is 9 foot 4 inches.

Allowing for a 4 inch wide brick in the end wall this gives an internal width of 9 foot. allowing for a small gap we would be talking about a bed nearly 9 foot in length

I then posted:
"From your own figures you are saying the bed is 9ft long.

I will not comment. Would others like to?"

I asked others to comment because it looked very, very long to me
i did not quote you as is obvious from my post above; your reply was to say I was lying!

I questioned if a bed this long would not act as a barricade to the partition wall door, as i expected you countered this by producing another plan with the following info attached

"OK. I use centimeters.

The bed is 3,17 centimeters if it was 2 meters.

The width of the bed could be, like this, don´t know, about 1,30.

The door between 26 and 13 opens into 26. OK."



That gives a bed length of 6 foot 6 and a half inches

This gives a gap between the walls of the room and the bed
of 2 foot 4 and a half inches, this is a considerable gap, and does not necessarily support your theory.

it is true is it not there is no bed on the fire insurance plan?

Therefore is it possible to ask where you get the measurement for the bed from ?

what source are you using? or is it a guess?

Which ever of the two latter plans you use, the head of the bed is much nearer to the partition wall, than previously,
Do you agree?

The MJK3 photograph, which you use in your suggestion, is taken at a slight angle looking back at the door, it is not quite level ( I would say window, but that is not my point)
Do you agree?

Given that Kelly appears to have been killed while laying at the top left hand side of bed and then moved across to the centre /right side of the bed. The body does not now line up with the door in MJK3.

For this to work the body would have to be moved not only across but down the bed.
It would then have to be moved back to the top of the bed for MJK1. where Kelly’s head is at the top of the bed.

This seems the only series of movements that fit your theory.



Just as an side, and it doesn't change the figures, can i ask why you convert from imperial to metric, when most of the discussions on casebook are in imperial measurement? it seems alot of bother to go to, given that it probably be convert back by other users. its not a criticism, i am just interested.



Elamarna

[David Orsam]

Leaving aside the size of the bed, Pierre has messed up his diagram in any case.

In his evidence at the inquest, Dr Phillips was describing what he saw in the room after the door was opened.

In Pierre's diagram the door is shut and barricaded by the furniture.

Once the door was opened, the position of furniture would have shifted.

Ironically, the bed would have ended up closer to the partition.

But this doesn't help Pierre because it means that MJK3 could not show the furniture barricading the door, unless the police moved it.

[David Orsam]

We all have to guess. Your guess is as good as anyone´s.

But the guess has to be realistic. So an unrealistic guess is not going to be as good as a realistic one.

[Pierre]

I think a meter and a half (at most) would be more believable, Pierre.

Well, if you say so. We all have to guess. Your guess is as good as anyone´s.

[Pcdunn]

I think a meter and a half (at most) would be more believable, Pierre.

[David Orsam]

The bed is 3,17 centimeters if it was 2 meters.

Is he now saying that Mary's bed would have been a little over 6.5 feet in length?

Mine is only about 6ft (and I'm 6ft tall!)

I love the way he's now posted three separate diagrams to try and get the barricading bed close against the partition but ends up failing miserably.

[David Orsam]

David,

I have been out for the evening and come back to this abuse.

I have not lied, if he does not withdraw the accusation should i report him to admin?
does anyone here have an opinion on this, or should i just ignore him?

David, i am a bad boy.

He's just answered your question, so you clearly haven't been trying hard enough!