Bowyer´s inquest testimony

[Elamarna]

Wickerman,

sorry didn't mention your chair idea, again like the washstand and PCdunn's bed knob it is possible, however again I see a doorknob coming out from the background, not a knob sitting on top of anything. i say this having played around with MJK3 in GIMP to the extent of both increasing and decreasing the exposure.
Truth is given that the photo is so indistinct, and we are working with a copy of a copy, and not the original plate we cannot be sure of anything,

regards

Elamarna

[Elamarna]

Actually this thread was about Bowyers statement, and while we spend days discussing the merits of both photos the truth is Bowyer said table in front of bed,

This would hold true for MJK1, and FOR MJK3 if the OP theory about barricading the door was true.

However Dr Phillips stated " On the door being opened it knocked against a table Which was close to the left-hand side of the bedstead, and the bedstead was close against the wooden partition."

this would support Bowyer and appear to favour MJK1.

i believe Bowyer told the truth and we have no reason to doubt him or Phillips

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks Michael. But what makes you think it wasn´t hinged on the left hand side looking from inside the room?

Regards Pierre

Because the door was hung from the right hand side, from the perspective of someone inside the room . Which would put the spring latch on the left hand side. Which would explain why Mary may have had a string attached to the latch...so it could be accessed from reaching in the broken pane while outside the window.

[Robert]

Michael there's no way that Mary, or Joe, or King Kong could have reached the catch if it was on the far side of the door.

An impression has gone abroad that the murderer took away the key of the room. Barnett informs me that it has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy

[Elamarna]

Because the door was hung from the right hand side, from the perspective of someone inside the room . Which would put the spring latch on the left hand side. Which would explain why Mary may have had a string attached to the latch...so it could be accessed from reaching in the broken pane while outside the window.

Michael

You have now said this twice. However all the plans I can find show it the other way round.
That is the hinges are on the left edge of the door when viewed from inside the room. With all respect why do you think this? Could you please supply a link to the evidence for this . For once I have to agree with Pierre
Regards
Elamarna

[Pcdunn]

Hi,

No, it´s the door leading to the court we´re talking about. Some think it has a door knob.

Regards Pierre

Ah, thanks for the clarification, Pierre.

Well, if we are talking the outside door's knob (assuming it had one, of course, rather than a latch with a bit of string), then it would appear that the door wasn't very far from the bed.

[Pcdunn]

on the various ideas put forward to say that the Knob is not a knob

The OP keeps saying it means the wall cuts the table, this is nonsense the wall or door or curtain, what ever it is does not cut anything it is behind the the Table. It is because he insists the door is barricaded he says this, most of the rest commenting here do not accept that and so believe we are looking at other things. To him the light strip can only be crack by the hinges and nothing else!
Until the OP is prepared to accept that he may , and I only say, may be wrong we will advance no further.

Wickerman, nice suggestion for a wash stand, however i do not think it is, we disagree, as you say that is ok.

Pcdunn, now that is an interesting idea, it has been suggested before, can't remember where, that the head board may have been removed.
it therefore could have been put against the wall/door if this is true. Agreed the decorative heads are near to the knob shape, but not a convincing match for me. I. would say a possible

Hello, Elamarna, thank you for the "possible"-- I agree the headboard knobs are shaped rather like minarets, but I thought the very top might have a rounder knob similar to the one we see in shadow. It could be that the headboard was moved, or only that foreshortening in the MJK3 photo makes the table seem closer.

I think the light strip is from the curtain at the window, mostly because the rounded bright spot suggests to me a reflection of the flash against glass.

[David Orsam]

i believe Bowyer told the truth and we have no reason to doubt him or Phillips

This is it in a nutshell. We have solid sworn evidence as to the position of the bed and table at the time when the murder was discovered and the police first entered the room, corroborated by MJK1, so all these diagrams and discussions about angles, optics, walls and doors etc., based on MJK3, are not going to change the established position at all.

[Dr. John Watson]

Thanks for the nice buggy ride.

John

[Elamarna]

Hi PCdunn

I almost agree with you, and did until I played around with the levels and curves in GIMP. that suggested that the strip was separate from everything else, and seemed to Agree with Simon Woods comments written in 2005. I know that he has now changed his mind on most of what he wrote, and has said he has a revelation in the 2nd edition of his book, so that may answers some questions on MJK3; or maybe not.
MJK3 proves very little in my opinion, mainly because we cannot be sure of what we see in the background, nor the exact position of the camera in the room.

I think the point is that the vast majority, feel MJK1 is an accurate representation of the scene , given it is backed by the statements of Bowyer and Phillips.
would you disagree with that?

regards

Elamarna

[Michael W Richards]

Michael there's no way that Mary, or Joe, or King Kong could have reached the catch if it was on the far side of the door.

An impression has gone abroad that the murderer took away the key of the room. Barnett informs me that it has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy

If you consider a door that swung inward towards the bed, and one that swings inward towards the table under the windows, it may seem a bit clearer. We also have a quote from Mary Ann Cox about how Mary accessed her spring latch..."Now next morning a Mrs Storey who was always in and out of Mary's room to have a pinch of snuff and a chat, was the first person to find the terrible body. Mary had a string on the door so anybody visiting had no need to knock. She dashed next door to my aunt and they both went in. My aunt never forgot the sight she saw". If the spring latch was placed on the inside right of the door it would have been easily reachable from the broken pane,..from the windows courtyard edge to the courtyard corner of the room was less than 2 feet.

It seems to me that she may have jury-rigged a solution to reach the spring latch with the string. That string solution may come into play when assessing how the killer got in.

As for why I believe the door swung inward towards the table under the windows..."The spectacle that was presented on the door being thrown open was ghastly in the extreme. The body of Mary Kelly was so horribly hacked and gashed that, but for the long hair, it was scarcely possible to say with any certainty that it was the body of a woman lying entirely naked on the wretched bed, with legs outspread and drawn up to the trunk". Mary would not be immediately visible if the door swung inward to the left, the door would block the view of most of the bed. Another reason is the limitations of the room size, in a 10 x 10 room the door would swing to a wall, not the room interior..thats simple space management.

Ive checked lots of images of Victorian doors and how they were hung, they vary, but the deciding factor is what they swing in to. In Marys case a door would swing away from the entrant and the room, not inward toward the bed.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

The trouble with the string idea is that the quote in which it's mentioned is unbelievable - Mrs Storey, whoever she was, wasn't the first person to find the body. We can hardly believe that the two women went in, saw the body, then shut the door and went off for a cup of tea.

If the door opened towards the broken window, then how did the table come to be knocked when Phillips entered? This table was close to the bed at the time.

Re the space argument, Mary's room wasn't originally a room - it only became a room once the partition was installed.

[Elamarna]

Michael.

With no disrespect meant, it is obvious from you last post that you genuinely consider the door opened that way, Never the less it is an opinion and nothing more.

your reasoning for this seem clear:

The use of string to open the latch, you quote:

"Now next morning a Mrs Storey who was always in and out of Mary's room to have a pinch of snuff and a chat, was the first person to find the terrible body."

Now that is not the storey as I understand it, no pun intended, surely Bowyer found the body, therefore the evidence that string was used may also be questionable.
Even if it is accurate it does not preclude the latch being on the right side of the door, string could still be used the reach from the window would be well over a foot and string would prevent any cuts from the broken glass.

Your reasoning based on viewing the body immediately the door is opened is
presumably based on the quote:

"The spectacle that was presented on the door being thrown open was ghastly in the extreme."

That quote does not make it clear that it was immediately viewable, indeed they already knew what to expect before opening the door.

There are plans on this site for 13 millers court, they appear to show the opposite to your view.

Too often opinion is given as fact, surely we should be challenging opinion if there appears to be no hard evidence to back the opinion up.

This does not mean that your view is incorrect, just that it is a strongly held view which may or may not be right

yours respectfully

Elamarna







"The spectacle that was presented on the door being thrown open was ghastly in the extreme. The body of Mary Kelly was so horribly hacked and gashed that, but for the long hair, it was scarcely possible to say with any certainty that it was the body of a woman lying entirely naked on the wretched bed, with legs outspread and drawn up to the trunk". Mary would not be immediately visible if the door swung inward to the left, the door would block the view of most of the bed. Another reason is the limitations of the room size, in a 10 x 10 room the door would swing to a

[Pcdunn]

Hi, Elamarna,

I don't disagree about MJK1 being a fairly true representation of the interior of Mary's room and the scene of her corpse. Makes sense to me.

[Wickerman]

I would have thought the journalist/artist could have seen first-hand which side the door knob was on.