Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Do we know what Kozminski looked like in Nov - March 1888? Yes Cox gives a clear description

And while having no photograph we do have photographs of near relatives which would suggest he was polish...dark curly hair and blue eyes

I think Karsten has provide the most interested research so far on the Jewish Convalescent Seaside Home as Anderson said the ID took place in an ASYLUM

Oh and just because it seems apparent that Lawende and Schwartsz failed to ID the suspect they saw...doesnt mean they didn't see Jack the Ripper

They either failed to connect the suspect because they had a **it view of the suspect or Kozminski possibly wasn't JtR

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

But after many posts and much discussion....Is that the general point of agreement?

It's just a small detail that gets overlooked. Neither BS-man nor the Lawende suspect were identified as, suspected to be, or described as Jewish. Whereas Kozminski could hardly be mistaken for being any thing else, but Jewish.
There's an inconsistency here Jeff.

In all my years of casebook thread watching it must surely be a first?

What, a "general point of agreement"? - he11 no, that will have to be stamped out before it goes viral.....

PS obviously from different view points but the same conclusion

Actually, that was not my intent, but it appears to be the case.
To my mind the lack of any hint of "Jewishness" associated with either suspect is a major inadequacy in both theories.
If it was theorized the suspect was a "sailor", then why not say "Jewish (or foreign) sailor", if that was the case?

Mrs Long was permitted to make that call ("he looked like a foreigner"), so why not Lawende or Schwartz?
Neither suspect did look "foreign" to the respective witness, that is the likely answer.

[S.Brett]

You should be looking for the Police Seaside Home -- something connected to the police.

The New Scotland Yard -1890- Victoria Embankment with a view of the Thames?

When Scotland Yard moved from the Old Scotland Yard (Whitehall Place) to the Norman Shaw Buildings (New Scotland Yard), maybe, it was the running gag of Anderson and Swanson to name the Norman Shaw Building "Seaside Home"...

Did the City Police bring "Kosminski" from an (private) asylum in Surrey to The New Scotland Yard (MET Police) at the Thames where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification?

Sent by us= By the other police (City CID)?

I know it is crazy but impossible?

[Abby Normal]

Kozminski was born in Poland, arrived in England at 16, was 23 when the murders occurred, would have had strong Jewish features.

In the six years he was here, if he managed to master English at all, likely broken English, he would still have a very noticeable foreign accent.
Schwartz heard BS-man speak, but no mention of him sounding foreign.

There is just no way Schwartz is not going to know Kozminski/BS-man was not Jewish.

I agree. But my question is this-if neither Schwartz or Lawendes is Anderson's witness then the suspect they saw (bs man and sailor man)can't be andersons suspect either.

Then who is the suspect?

[S.Brett]

And while having no photograph we do have photographs of near relatives which would suggest he was polish...dark curly hair and blue eyes

Yes, Polish at best... I was born and grew up near the Polish border (former GDR/federal province "Brandenburg")... I am a half Polish... when I look at the photographs of the "Kozminski" family they look like the people of my home region... when I look at the photographs of Matilda & Morris Lubnowski they could be member of my family and we are not Jewish... Matilda & Morris Lubnowski and me (and my family) it is more a mix between German/Polish... I can imagine, when Morris Lubnowski walked the streets of the East End, that people thought "Is he German or Polish?" In each case he might be Jewish... but "Foreigner" could mean German/Polish (Aaron Kozminski spoke German and Lipski is a common name in Germany&Poland).

And it is clear, for the Seaside Home witness (Jewish himself) with "a good view of the murderer" "Kosminski" did not look Jewish... "but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him" (Anderson)

For example Lawende, born in Warzaw/Poland. To me he looks like a German. And Major Smith (City Police) said "a sort of hybrid German", probably he meant Lawende.

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Yes, Polish at best... I was born and grew up near the Polish border......

Hi Karsten.
What is missing today is the rigid class structure that the ordinary person was expected to reflect in his appearance a hundred years ago.
I dare say Poland in the late 19th century was no different to London, where a person was expected to reflect his true position and status in society in his attire and appearance, quite different to today where we follow what ever fashion we prefer.
The common citizen did not have the choices we have today.

[Wickerman]

....

Then who is the suspect?

Ah, the true answer to that question will not depend on what we know about the case, but rather, what Anderson/Swanson knew about the case.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Kozminski was born in Poland, arrived in England at 16, was 23 when the murders occurred, would have had strong Jewish features.

In the six years he was here, if he managed to master English at all, likely broken English, he would still have a very noticeable foreign accent.
Schwartz heard BS-man speak, but no mention of him sounding foreign.

There is just no way Schwartz is not going to know Kozminski/BS-man was not Jewish.

I disagree (not saying that the man was Jewish or not), it's really hard for someone who doesn't speak a language to make a distinction of accent in said language. Schwartz didn't speak English, he needed a translator when telling his tale.

[lynn cates]

I D

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Actually, I was asking why Mac was not privy to the "ID."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

possibilities

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"Swanson is very clear. He died shortly afterwards."

Agreed--clear as crystal.

"I have no doubt that is what he believed."

Nor yet I.

"The problem is we know Kozminski didn't die until 1919."

Yes. Huge problem.

"So there are a number of possibilities: 1. Anderson deliberately covered Kozminski up claiming he was dead...he was an old spy."

Indeed. But why cover THIS one up?

"2. Anderson was given incorrect information when Kozminski was transferred to Leavesden."

OK. By whom? And does this not make Sir Robert more spectator than investigator?

"3. There was a record mix-up at the asylum, the records after all are missing at Leavesden until 1910, which strangely is when Anderson released TLSOMOL"

Of course, such a mix up opens a nasty can of worms for the whole theory.

"4. Other"

Such as Mac bringing Kosminski to light only to have Sir Robert jump at the theory?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

identity

Hello (yet again) Jeff.

"Do we know what Kozminski looked like in Nov - March 1888? Yes Cox gives a clear description"

But we don't know this was Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

Hi Jon!

Hi Karsten.
What is missing today is the rigid class structure that the ordinary person was expected to reflect in his appearance a hundred years ago.
I dare say Poland in the late 19th century was no different to London, where a person was expected to reflect his true position and status in society in his attire and appearance, quite different to today where we follow what ever fashion we prefer.
The common citizen did not have the choices we have today.

Of course...

All I can say is; when I look at the photographs of Matilda & Morris I see ordinary people.

Who does not know them?

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/person/Matilda-Rachel-Lubnowski-born-Kosminski/137044012-1000060%28DF%29

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/person/Maurice-Lubnowski/137044012-1000059

If Aaron Kozminski was Jack the Ripper these people were his sister, brother in law and cousin. I have six sibelings. Three sisters + myself have black hairs, two sister + my brother have light brown hair. My only brother (the youngest of all) has curly hair. We sisters with the black hair look more like Polish, the other sisters more German.

Cox:

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair..."

When I look at photographs of the Kozminski family I see some children with curly hair. But that is probably quite normal...

I am convinced that Lawende saw the Ripper but I do not think that he thought this man is Jewish. In the best case the man looked like a "Foreigner" (Mrs. Long). And the witness with the "good view of the murderer" saw, in the best case a foreigner, a man who did not look like a Jew.

I am not convinced that Schwartz saw the Ripper but, of course, it is possible. But I see too many men with "caps" at that time.

Just one of many examples (the first photograph):

http://www.mandy-janes.co.uk/ASSENHEIM/assenheims.htm

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

It's just a small detail that gets overlooked. Neither BS-man nor the Lawende suspect were identified as, suspected to be, or described as Jewish. Whereas Kozminski could hardly be mistaken for being any thing else, but Jewish.
There's an inconsistency here Jeff.
.

Hi Jon

I think we should be careful here I have no intension of coursing any offence to our jewish members, but I don't think it reasonable to suggest that Jewish people have a specific appearance infact the exact opposite..

It might be reasonable to suggest that Orthodox jews have a specific dress style, but that is surely fashion rather than genetic and there is know evidence that the Kozminski family or Kalish community were orthodox, again the opposite, although they clearly practiced jewish religion.

Genetically the Kozminski's were Polish. The idea of the tribes of Abraham is largely a myth. People from the area of Poland we're talking about weren't Jewish they were all forced to convert some time in the 12th century.

So i think you have a red herring... appearance wise you couldn't tell whether Kozminski was polish and this is confirmed by the witness who only refused to give evidence when he learned the suspect was jewish after the ID.

So we know Kozminski in appearance didn't look, what people might assume, as being of jewish appearance

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Yes, Polish at best... I was born and grew up near the Polish border (former GDR/federal province "Brandenburg")... I am a half Polish... when I look at the photographs of the "Kozminski" family they look like the people of my home region... when I look at the photographs of Matilda & Morris Lubnowski they could be member of my family and we are not Jewish... Matilda & Morris Lubnowski and me (and my family) it is more a mix between German/Polish... I can imagine, when Morris Lubnowski walked the streets of the East End, that people thought "Is he German or Polish?" In each case he might be Jewish... but "Foreigner" could mean German/Polish (Aaron Kozminski spoke German and Lipski is a common name in Germany&Poland).

And it is clear, for the Seaside Home witness (Jewish himself) with "a good view of the murderer" "Kosminski" did not look Jewish... "but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him" (Anderson)

For example Lawende, born in Warzaw/Poland. To me he looks like a German. And Major Smith (City Police) said "a sort of hybrid German", probably he meant Lawende.

Karsten.

Morning Karsten

Sorry I posted before reading your post but yes I'm in total agreement..

I have a friend called Joe who is Jewish also, half Irish and half Sicilian..

Hes a bit of an expert on Jewish tribes and culture, the various movements of the tribes, some of which appear to be more African than eruopian

Kozminski was Polish, I totally agree

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Then who is the suspect?

Kozminski was the suspect

Surely you mean who was the witness?

What we know about the witness

He was a fellow Jew

He refused to testify when he learned the suspect was a fellow jew

He was the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer

Specualtion: He was connected to the last murder Kelly...because know other murders of this kind took place after the Suspect...knew he was identified

Yours Jeff