Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Camberwell House Asylum

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Previous Numbers MSS.6648-6649
Level Collection

Extent 2 volumes

Date mid 19th century - late 19th century
Ordering Instructions This archive record describes a grouping of orderable items: to order any of them for consultation, order copies or view them if they have been digitised, navigate down the archive hierarchy to Item level.
Name Camberwell House Asylum

Description
Volumes 2-3 of the case books of Camberwell House, a private lunatic asylum (metropolitan licensed house) at Camberwell, Surrey.

The casebooks contain records for approximately 900 people. The volumes contain no internal indexes but an alphabetical list of patient names has been compiled for each volume (see individual item level records for MS.6220 and MS.6221).

Volume 2 contains records for people admitted 1847-1850 with further notes on the some of the same patients through 1876. Volume 3 contains admission records for 1850-1853 with further records on some of the same patients through 1887.

Historical Background
The asylum was founded in 1846 by John Hayball Paul (1816-1899), who was also medical superintendent, 1846-99. Paul entered into partnership with F.G. Aubin and Alfred Richards as Aubin & Co., this firm being the official owner of the asylum at one period.

During the span of these case books the asylum admitted mainly pauper patients.

It closed in 1955.

For further historical background see N.B. Hervey, "The Lunacy Commission 1845-60, with special reference to ... Kent and Surrey", University of Bristol PhD thesis, 1987, Vol. 2, pp. 155-56, 173, 111-12; W. H. Blanch, Ye Parish of Camberwell pp.348-349 (E.W. Allen, 1875); and Fiona Subotsky and Jill Dudman, "The Founders of Camberwell House Asylum" (Friends of West Norwood Cemetery Newsletter No.73, January 2012, pp.8-11).

Custodial History Formerly in the collection of Dr R.A. Hunter.
Acquisition Details Purchased from R D Gurney Ltd, 1981 (acc. 334939).
Accession Number 334939
Access Status Open

Access Conditions The papers are available subject to the usual conditions of access to Archives and Manuscripts material. A digitised copy is available to view via the online catalogue on the Wellcome Library website.
Reproduction Conditions Images are supplied for private research only at the Archivist's discretion. Please note that material may be unsuitable for copying on conservation grounds. Researchers who wish to publish material must seek copyright permission from the copyright owner.

Language English
Finding Aids Database description taken from that in: Richard Palmer, Catalogue of Western Manuscripts in the Wellcome Library for the History & Understanding of Medicine: Western Manuscripts 5120-6244 (London: The Wellcome Library for the History & Understanding of Medicine, 1999).
Copies <p>A digitised copy is held by the Wellcome Library as part of The Mental Health Archives digitisation project.
Related Material
At other repositories:

The Royal College of Psychiatrists, London, holds: Vol. 1 of the Camberwell House case books, containing information on admissions nos. 1-441 (1846-1847) and notes up to the 1860s; two volumes containing admissions records nos.201-600 for pauper patients (1846-1848); the Visitors' Book of Commissioners in Lunacy, 1846-1865; photographs of the asylum (part of the asylum building, tennis court and the grounds); laundry rules (c. 1910); and a notice for a lecture and a concert held in the theatre at the asylum (c. 1920s).

MaterialType Archives - Non-digital
System No. cc32376a-ae12-44a8-b246-ee5e7e206cdf

Morning Karsten

As I understand the records for Camberwell asylum are at the Wellcome Library London however I can find know reference for records March 1889

Yours Jeff

[Chris2307uk]

Could it be this Butcher Row?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5117923,-0.0425376,17.75z

[lynn cates]

not very interested

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Whether he is talking about Kozminski being alive or detained the context is clear that he is UNCERTAIN"

Yes, he did not know if Kosmisnki had been released.

Perhaps that's because he was not very interested, having exonerated him?

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

[As I understand the records for Camberwell asylum are at the Wellcome Library London however I can find know reference for records March 1889

Hello Jeff,

See my post #877

At the moment I am on Ancestry searching for “the man”. Via Admission and Discharge records… Southwark, Camberwell, Havil Street Old and New Workhouses 1889-1890 but I am surprised there is no record before 17 März 1889!!!

I stopped at page 91. I guess I will not find anything...

"Terror" here in Germany... take a break... more ideas will follow...

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Whether he is talking about Kozminski being alive or detained the context is clear that he is UNCERTAIN"

Yes, he did not know if Kosmisnki had been released.

Perhaps that's because he was not very interested, having exonerated him?

Cheers.
LC

I totally agree Lynn. MacNAughten preferred Druit...and for good reason, there was no proof discovered about Kozminhski up until March 1889

So MacNaughten was correct

What is being speculated is that Anderson believed Kozminski to be the ripper following an ID that happened at a later date...and MacNaughten didn't know about Swanson's/Andersons ID

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Paddy

Theres a feature on Sagars suspect on casebook by Scot Nelson which has the following photo...

'Butcher’s Row, Aldgate High Street during late Victorian times. Street numbers refer to the premises addresses. Map 145, B22, no 71 Vol .3 (By permission of the British Library)'

I'll do some double checking but as long as I have the MET/CITY boundary correct its marked on this map so should correspond with the RBS building in my photos

Yours Jeff

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Jeff,

" He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889."

You cannot detain a corpse.

Roy

[Jeff Leahy]

Good morning Jeff,

" He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889."

You cannot detain a corpse.

Roy

Hi Roy

whether he was dead, alive, detained, joined the choir invisible or simply feeling unwell.. MacNAughtenh was 'uncertain' what happened to Kozminski after March 1889...

He was however positive Ostrog was alive

Yours Jeff

[Paddy]

Could it be this Butcher Row?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.51...0425376,17.75z

Hi Chris yes thats it thanks......Sadly not the right one. After I posted it I found that Sagar said it was Butchers Row Aldgate.

[lynn cates]

loop

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"MacNaughten didn't know about Swanson's/Anderson's ID"

But isn't that odd, in itself? Why is Mac cut out of the loop?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"MacNaughten didn't know about Swanson's/Anderson's ID"

But isn't that odd, in itself? Why is Mac cut out of the loop?

Cheers.
LC

A to Z: A cautious note is given by Sir Robert Anderson in his memoirs , where he recalled being vexed with a senior colleague, who made a silly fuss about a threatening letter. Chief inspector Swanson, recorded privately that this colleague was 'Macnaghten CH Const'

By 1891, matters seem to have come to a head and it was reported Manaughten was seeking transfer to the uniform branch, but somehow they were tided over and Macnaughten continued to serve under Anderson until the laters retirement in 1901. He then served for two years under major Edward Henry, to whom he dedicated his book...

Morning Lynn

I'm note certain Macnaughten was kept out of the loop. I believe he came to his conclusion on Druit when Anderson was still saying they didn't know who the ripper was.... That Anderson was approached by a member of Kozminski's family (Via Crawford) And Anderson gave his word to keep it quite in return for their assistance...Macnaughten not knowing about further evidence simply stuck with his theory

A to Z: In 1890, Monroe told Cassells Magazine that he had 'decidedly' formed a theory on the case, adding 'when i do theorise it is from a practical stand point, and not upon upon visionary foundation'

Is this an attack on MacNaughtens theory?

A to Z cont: He also said, however, that the police had 'Nothing positive' by way of clues, with the rider that such crimes were difficult to solve since the victims, as well as the murderer, sought secret sites

Macnaughten was aware of the story of a Maniac revealing in blood, but didn't know the whole story which was kept quite to protect the family of Kozminski....Monroes 'Hot potato'

When MAcnaughten came across Kozminski file he was surprised how unconvincing the file was unto march 1889...

But he didn't know about the Crawford letter or the later ID... Which must have taken place with a new witness discovered after the Millers court murder...

While of course this is speculation, hopefully its reasonable speculation which explains why the various coppers believed what they did..

All of them believed Kozminski died shortly after he entered the asylum. Whether Anderson actually new he was alive or not is another question, however I'm certain that Abberline..and Swanson believe the suspect was dead..

So Macnaughten must have know the general theory past around the department. What he didn't know (I believe still is) are the details of the ID... which was organised by Swanson, so he does

Yours Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

All of them believed Kozminski died shortly after he entered the asylum.

Maybe he did, Jeff.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thought I'd take in. This thread has FA to do with Packer and Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Thought I'd take in. This thread has FA to do with Packer and Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Actually your wrong...the main thrust here is that Schwartz can not have been Swanson's ID witness... Something that has been fairly main stream by various Kozminskites over previous decades (And of course it can not have been lawenda either) all of which raises problems

And then Packer is often dismissed as an unreliable witness and the resulting argument is usually that he should be dismissed completely...

What we are trying to do here is reavaluate

Sometimes a thread takes its own direction..however if anyone would prefer for that debate to take place under other thread topics .. I'm happy to re-avaluate where those posts should be..

However your opinion on what is actually being discussed would actually be more useful Tom than counter productive criticism

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Maybe he did, Jeff.

Kozminski enter Colney Hatch Asylum in Feb 1891 = Fact

Yours Jeff