Packer and Schwartz

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon

No I didn't but I would call silk soft - as opposed to say string, or wire.

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/ligature-strangulation

He really is good.

Best wishes
C4

But is he better than Jack Klugman ?

Bloody hell !! Are those "real" photos on the attached ?

[curious4]

Hello Jon

No I didn't but I would call silk soft - as opposed to say string, or wire.

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/ligature-strangulation

He really is good.

Best wishes
C4

I did find this on another site though:

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf

"When a fabric, such as a scarf, chunni or towel has been used, the marks on the neck may be difficult to interpret. A broad
flat band may leave no mark whatsoever."

(Page 13 Discussion)

Also she was only throttled for a short time, just enough to make her insensible. This may also explain the lack of a mark - amd of course the cut may have obscured any such mark.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[curious4]

But is he better than Jack Klugman ?

Bloody hell !! Are those "real" photos on the attached ?

I try not to look at those!

Did look him up some time ago and he seemed on the level. And India is the land of the Thugees!

Gwyneth

[Abby Normal]

Hi all
I would be remiss if I didn't say that this thread and the posts on here has made me change my mind slightly on Schwartz. I now think there is a modicum of possibility that he may not be credible, whereas before I thought there was no chance to question his credibility. I didn't know about the second star report that the police questioned his story so thank you Johng, Lynne and wicker for pointing it out.

It would be nice to know why they might not have believed him and why he wasn't at the inquest.

Does anyone know why he wasn't there?

I think Stewart Evans once said why, but I cant remember.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi all
I would be remiss if I didn't say that this thread and the posts on here has made me change my mind slightly on Schwartz. I now think there is a modicum of possibility that he may not be credible, whereas before I thought there was no chance to question his credibility. I didn't know about the second star report that the police questioned his story so thank you Johng, Lynne and wicker for pointing it out.

It would be nice to know why they might not have believed him and why he wasn't at the inquest.

Does anyone know why he wasn't there?

I think Stewart Evans once said why, but I cant remember.

Hi Abby,
Is your reassessment of Schwartz's testimony as a result of reading "They All Love Jack" by Bruce Robinson?

I am at the part of the book where he dismisses Schwatrz as a reliable witness and puts forward a case for accepting the evidence of Matthew Packer that he sold grapes to Stride and a man.

[Jeff Leahy]

I am at the part of the book where he dismisses Schwatrz as a reliable witness and puts forward a case for accepting the evidence of Matthew Packer that he sold grapes to Stride and a man.

Yeah he'd been on the Camberwell Carrot

[barnflatwyngarde]

Yeah he'd been on the Camberwell Carrot

I am reliably informed that as a youth he used to weep in butchers shops,

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,
Is your reassessment of Schwartz's testimony as a result of reading "They All Love Jack" by Bruce Robinson?

I am at the part of the book where he dismisses Schwatrz as a reliable witness and puts forward a case for accepting the evidence of Matthew Packer that he sold grapes to Stride and a man.

NO!!
its because of this thread and what the posters have posted!

[Paddy]

Inquest

I've been reading about Coroners and think its probable that Schwartz's written evidence was given but the Coroner chose not to call him, possibly at request of police....However if there was a chance of arresting someone the Coroner would probably have postponed the inquest, so an arrest was not on the cards at that time.

My own personal take on it is that the Schwartz statement was surpressed as it involved a sighting of pipeman, who I think could have been undercover.

Pat.......

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon!

(Please excuse my onesidedness concerning "Kosminski")

Hello Karsten.
Yes, I had noticed you are viewing these crimes with Kozminski in mind.

That is interesting! I suspect that the police has found "Kosminski" after the Double Event in October 1888 (Batty Street story etc.).

Actually, that listing of recent suspect descriptions was a reprint from the Police Gazette of 19th Oct. The version I quoted (Nov. 12th) was the first appeal to the public in general.

Maybe he was one of many suspects. But I assume that the witnesses, Smith, Schwartz and Lawende would have "seen" this suspect after the police had found him. But no one of them recognised "Kosminski" (perhaps with "the exception" of the City PC). One could think that he looked quite different compared to these descriptions.

It's hard to judge when we today have no idea what Kozminski looked like in 1888.

... Mrs.Long and Lawende, I guess, saw the Whitechapel Murderer... but did PC Smith and Schwartz see the killer?

Karsten.

Are you making a distinction between the Whitechapel murderer, and the Killer?

[Wickerman]

I've been reading about Coroners and think its probable that Schwartz's written evidence was given but the Coroner chose not to call him, possibly at request of police....However if there was a chance of arresting someone the Coroner would probably have postponed the inquest, so an arrest was not on the cards at that time.

My own personal take on it is that the Schwartz statement was surpressed as it involved a sighting of pipeman, who I think could have been undercover.

Pat.......

Hi Pat.

A witness may still be permitted to provide testimony even if the police would prefer the witness not to mention one particular incident or suspect.
Instructions would be given not to ask certain questions, or that he may be allowed to refuse to answer any question that may give too much away.
As was the case at the Eddowes inquest with Lawende.

We have all looked in the Coroner's summary to see if he alludes to certain details that could only have come from Schwartz, but there is no indication the Coroner knew anything of the story given by Schwartz.

[c.d.]

"It would be nice to know why they might not have believed him and why he wasn't at the inquest.

Does anyone know why he wasn't there?"

Hello Abby,

No, no one knows for sure but that hasn't stopped some posters on here from saying that THEY KNOW but the reality is that they are speculating like every one else.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.



But it's precisely that first "if" that I'm challenging.

I completely dispute that Stride "chose to stay in the same spot after her encounter with BS man". I'm suggesting that she was only likely to remain in the same spot between the arrival of her physical attacker and her subsequent murder - occurring as they did within minutes of each other - because she was kept there, against her will, by her physical attacker who minutes thereafter revealed himself to be her murderer.

All the best,
Ben

Hello Ben,

Wouldn't it be a reasonable assumption by the B.S. man during these minutes that Schwartz and/or the Pipeman had found the nearest P.C. and were now headed back to where Schwartz saw Stride?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If every Whitechapel prostitute (yes, yes I know, Lynn) fled the streets after such an encounter they would starve to death."

One need not flee the streets--one need merely reposition to a safer location.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

But only if she felt threatened in the first place.

c.d.

[c.d.]

NO!!
its because of this thread and what the posters have posted!

Good for you, Abby. Someone keeping an open mind is a bit of a rarity on here.

Of course you now have to come up with a REASON why Schwartz would lie. That could be kind of tough.

I know you don't like the idea (well despise it actually) of another killer besides the B.S. man but it does explain a lot of discrepancies in Schwartz's statement and eliminates the idea of him lying.

So with your new open mind dip your toe in the water on that one.

c.d.