Packer and Schwartz

[John G]

Hello CD and JohnG
regarding swansons statement-like I said fairy tail. a man who dosnt exist except in your (and his) mind.

Stride has bruisings on both shoulders, and choked by her scarf and a slit throat dead on the ground. Any way you look at it she was violently murdered. if she can hold onto cashoo through this she can hold onto them through anything.

Your problems and the rest of the cashoo crowd is that you are looking for stuff that's not there-fairy tails, because it dosnt fit what you THINK should be present or happened. Probably to fit some pre conceived theory, instead of focusing on the evidence that is present.

Hello Abby,

There was no bruising to the shoulders! There is zero evidence that she was choked. Stride could have held onto the cachous as she was brought to the ground by an assailant grabbing her from behind, as he would be supporting her and she would have no need to break a fall: see Lynn's video reconstruction.

Why do you think PC Smith's suspect didn't exist? Why would a serving police officer make up something like that? Are you alleging a conspiracy?Do you think PC Smith was a freemason?

[John G]

Stride's throat was cut in the yard and she was most probably lying on the ground. Both doctors agreed on this, but accept that it could possibly have been done while she was falling (if she fell). This was judging by the flow of blood and the killer's need to avoid being spattered with blood.

She was probably choked into unconsciousness in the street after Schwarz passed by, and this would be harder to do if she was lying on the ground, which is why I feel she must have been forced down into a sitting position (how else explain the pressure bruises on her shoulders/chest).

Another passerby (had there been one) would have thought she was drunk, limp and with head hanging down and that the man lifting her up and carrying her into the yard was taking care of her, so little risk there. She didn't drop the cachous because she didn't fall, and subsequently because of the hand-clenching reflex which comes with being choked.

There was only mud on the left side of her clothes from lying on her side. If she had fallen surely there would have been mud elsewhere - on her back, for example.

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4,

There were no bruises on her shoulders! There is zero evidence that Schwartz witnessed Stride being forced to the ground by her shoulders, that's simply inventing a third scenario: the police report says she was thrown to the ground and the Star's version pushed. There is zero evidence that she was strangled.

It makes no sense that BS man, having attempted to pull Stride into the street, would then disengage and get hold of her shoulders instead, forcing her to the ground. Whereas, grabbing hold of her arms, spinning her around and throwing her to the ground makes perfect sense as this can be achieved in one fluid motion.

If Stride had only been forced to the ground by her shoulders, why didn't she just get up and run away? Why wasn't she screaming for assistance?
At least if she was thrown to the ground she may have been temporarily stunned or in a state of shock, and possibly even out of breath after struggling with BS man. That, at least, would explain why she didn't attempt to escape, I.e. when BS man's attention was distracted as he saw off Schwartz. And why the screams weren't very loud.

[John G]

Yes, and reads very much like what Dr Blackwell suggested:

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

Hi Wikerman,

Thanks. Now we might actually be getting somewhere at last!

[John G]

Hello CD.

"Schwartz does not describe a murder, he simply states that he saw a woman being thrown to the ground. That's it."

Precisely.

(And I can sympathise with your frustration. I nearly despair that we still have the body direction wrong and rot about being dragged.)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Despair is certainly the right word for it! Schwartz's evidence doesn't make any sense based on the known facts. Therefore, how on earth does it makes more sense to attempt re-write his testimony, so that it does make a sort of sense, rather than completely rejecting it? I mean, even arguing that Schwartz must have got the time wrong, and that he misidentified Stride, has surely got to be a more logical approach.

[Wickerman]

I think we were the first Jack the Ripper program to go into detail the importance of the various witness statements that night. Before Stride had simply been dismissed as an attack gone wrong when the horse and cart turned up.

I accept that the debate will continue, that was always my purpose, and so it should*do. The account we put forward is the most straight forward solution but the position of Pipeman was highly controversial.

Of all the murders I think the Stride murder will continue to draw the most discussion and disagreement, for obvious reasons and the many differing accounts.

Its my personal opinion that Stride was very different for the killer also.

Many thanks Jon

Yours Jeff

I'll drink to that Jeff.


I tend to view these Stride debates from opposite sides, I can't decide whether she was a Ripper victim or not. So not committed either way.
It is the incidental details that interest me more than the overall question of "Ripper, or not?"

[Wickerman]

And, to take a note out of Phillips's book, contrary to the obviously contrary posts that suggest otherwise, Stride couldn't have been forced and held to the ground by her shoulders or her back would have been muddied, as it was it is her left side where mud from the yard was found, naturally then, it was only her left side which made contact with the yard.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

There was no bruising to the shoulders! There is zero evidence that she was choked. Stride could have held onto the cachous as she was brought to the ground by an assailant grabbing her from behind, as he would be supporting her and she would have no need to break a fall: see Lynn's video reconstruction.

Why do you think PC Smith's suspect didn't exist? Why would a serving police officer make up something like that? Are you alleging a conspiracy?Do you think PC Smith was a freemason?

Hi John
Of course I think PC smiths man exists. He's probably the same peaked cap man they all saw..What are you babbling about?
This is the sort of nonsense in your last paragraph that I'm arguing against!
Did you bump your head or something? ; )

[lynn cates]

Basil the great

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes. Think some of us need to check out the old basil Rathbone movies. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

miracle

Hell Jon.

"And, to take a note out of Phillips's book, contrary to the obviously contrary posts that suggest otherwise, Stride couldn't have been forced and held to the ground by her shoulders or her back would have been muddied, as it was it is her left side where mud from the yard was found, naturally then, it was only her left side which made contact with the yard."

Absolutely. It would take a miracle.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John
Of course I think PC smiths man exists. He's probably the same peaked cap man they all saw..What are you babbling about?
This is the sort of nonsense in your last paragraph that I'm arguing against!
Did you bump your head or something? ; )

I was responding to your post, 271, which you might want to re-read and totally revise, referring to "a man who doesn't exist except in your own mind." As I have constantly argued that I believe Stride was most likely killed by PC Smith's suspect, the logical inference is that you were arguing that PC Smith's suspect doesn't exist!

Oh dear, no wonder I'm sinking into a well of dispair over this thread-would someone please hoist me back up!

[John G]

And, to take a note out of Phillips's book, contrary to the obviously contrary posts that suggest otherwise, Stride couldn't have been forced and held to the ground by her shoulders or her back would have been muddied, as it was it is her left side where mud from the yard was found, naturally then, it was only her left side which made contact with the yard.

Hi Wickerman,

Excellent post. I feel the dispair starting to wear off already.

[John G]

I'll drink to that Jeff.


I tend to view these Stride debates from opposite sides, I can't decide whether she was a Ripper victim or not. So not committed either way.
It is the incidental details that interest me more than the overall question of "Ripper, or not?"

Hello Wickerman,

I still think that, on balance, Stride was was a Ripper victim. Reject BS man and what your left with is a killer who was able to quickly, and stealthily, overpower the victim, whilst remaining undetected in a public area, I.e. next to a busy club where, during the assault, Mrs D was probably sat just feet away, in the kitchen, with the window open, but yet still heard nothing.

He was also able to make good his escape, without attracting attention to himself, despite the fact that the Berner Street locality appeared to be a high traffic area. And, of course, he seemed to have persuaded Stride to accompany him into a pitch-black yard, whilst ensuring that she was completely oblivious to the danger she was in, imlying a high degree of subtlety on his part (the antithesis of clumsy BS man.)

That suggests to me a degree of pre-planning and organisation, which may be indicative of an experienced killer.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes. Think some of us need to check out the old basil Rathbone movies. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Wonderful idea! Especially as I'm a fan of Basil's portrayal of Sherlock. I'm sure this would be a great help to some posters- "When you have eliminated the impossible..."

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Absolutely. But, since the doctors weren't sure when the bruising occurred, I shan't worry.

If Liz were EVER thrown to the ground it would have shown in her dress.

Cheers.
LC

As you yourself pointed out she was muddy on the left side..

I have tried drugging a heavy object over slats with velvet clothe and it doesn't leave much of a mark. Plus you have many people walking over the area between the gate and where the body is discovered

Frankly if she was dragged three or four feet i don't think it would leave much of a trace

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

Pearly

Hello John. Thanks.

"The Pearl of Death" is good for learning to assess evidence. Some posters here DESPERATELY need that.

Cheers.
LC