Possible explanation for Maxwell Discrepency?

[Abby Normal]

Ive always thought Maxwell was mistaken-either she was wrong about the day or about the person. It seems unlikely she could be mistaken about the day as she was questioned mere hours after the discovery of MKs body and had the milk/plates explanation that ties it to that morning-so I leaned toward she had the wrong person-probably a different Mary (mary and even mary Kelly was a very common name).

Now I think it was something a little different-though she still had the person wrong.

Its not that it was a different woman named Mary Kelly.

In the days and weeks leading to Mary's murder, she had been letting different friends, also prostitutes, stay with her in her place. Cox admitted she didn't know her very well and only spoke to her a few times.

Maybe Maxwell had met one of these friends who was staying with Mary and assumed it was Mary Kelly-since that woman had been staying with her at her place and Maxwell had seen her coming and going?

The coroner at the inquest seemed to be getting at something similar, when he asked Maxwell--- that eventhough you only spoke a few times you knew her name??

[RivkahChaya]

I wondered something like that.

I also wonder if MJK was charging money for the people she let stay in the room. If she essentially turned the room into a flop-house, she could actually be making a profit on it (we know little of her character, but that seems consistent), and she may have not wanted McCarthy to know that there were "sub-lettors," so to speak, or he'd want a cut. Maybe some of the women who used the room actually did tell people who made casual inquiries that they were Mary Kelly, because that person could be someone working for McCarthy.

Yes, I know that McCarthy knew what Kelly looked like, but every errand boy sent to collect rent did not necessarily know.

It was just a thought. Again, one of those far-reaching things more for a novel than a serious book, but it just goes to show there are lots of explanations that exonerate Maxwell from deliberate lying. It's my opinion that she did not do that.

[Abby Normal]

I wondered something like that.

I also wonder if MJK was charging money for the people she let stay in the room. If she essentially turned the room into a flop-house, she could actually be making a profit on it (we know little of her character, but that seems consistent), and she may have not wanted McCarthy to know that there were "sub-lettors," so to speak, or he'd want a cut. Maybe some of the women who used the room actually did tell people who made casual inquiries that they were Mary Kelly, because that person could be someone working for McCarthy.

Yes, I know that McCarthy knew what Kelly looked like, but every errand boy sent to collect rent did not necessarily know.

It was just a thought. Again, one of those far-reaching things more for a novel than a serious book, but it just goes to show there are lots of explanations that exonerate Maxwell from deliberate lying. It's my opinion that she did not do that.

Hi RC
its possible that she was charging them, but I doubt it. it seems all things considered MK was a good hearted person. It was probably along the lines of I look out for you, you look out for me. As in her friends might share food, drink money, clothes etc.

[David Orsam]

Hi Abby, I'm rather glad you have started this thread because it allows me to get something off my chest that I've wanted to say for some months.

There is, as you know, a theory that Mrs Maxwell might have seen Mary Jane Kelly's (male) killer emerging from her lodging dressed in her clothes.

I have always thought this to be very unlikely if not utterly ridiculous.

But a few months ago I was watching a Channel 5 documentary about the murderer Hadden Clark which related the murder of Laura Houghteling, where police were confused because Laura had been seen by a local housekeeper leaving her house for work at 8am on the morning of Monday, 19 October 1992 when other evidence suggested she had been murdered on the Sunday night. It turned out that Hadden had dressed himself in Laura's clothes and then left her house, being thought by the witness to be Laura.

I was, like, wow, that's the Maxwell/Kelly theory!!

So it seems that such a bizarre mis-identification is possible.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, I'm rather glad you have started this thread because it allows me to get something off my chest that I've wanted to say for some months.

There is, as you know, a theory that Mrs Maxwell might have seen Mary Jane Kelly's (male) killer emerging from her lodging dressed in her clothes.

I have always thought this to be very unlikely if not utterly ridiculous.

But a few months ago I was watching a Channel 5 documentary about the murderer Hadden Clark which related the murder of Laura Houghteling, where police were confused because Laura had been seen by a local housekeeper leaving her house for work at 8am on the morning of Monday, 19 October 1992 when other evidence suggested she had been murdered on the Sunday night. It turned out that Hadden had dressed himself in Laura's clothes and then left her house, being thought by the witness to be Laura.

I was, like, wow, that's the Maxwell/Kelly theory!!

So it seems that such a bizarre mis-identification is possible.

Hi David
thanks for the post.
Yes it is possible, I guess.
But in this case, Maxwell claimed she spoke with Mary so....

Also, Hadden Clark was bat **** crazy(for lack of a better, more clinical term-LOL), targeting victms essentially at random, with little or no stealth and cunning about him, which is probably why he was caught. So not sure if the analogy with the ripper works here.

But what do think of my idea? sound feasible?

[Harry D]

Hello, Abby.

Problem with this theory is that Maxwell claims to have known Kelly for four months, and we know that she only recently started taking in her fellow unfortunates. Barnett moved out at the end of October as a result of this, correct? So one would assume that Maxwell had made Mary Kelly's acquaintance before then.

Then again, the whole Mary Kelly murder is a riddle wrapped in an enigma.

[David Orsam]

But what do think of my idea? sound feasible?

I'd say there are a lot of possibilities but, if you are right, it means the police were really rubbish considering they couldn't apparently trace a woman who had been staying with Mary Jane over a 4 month period (and who was also called "Mary" if Maxwell's evidence was correct). My own view, however, is coloured by the fact that I have sympathy for Mrs Maxwell who was told by the coroner that her evidence conflicted with other evidence (about the time of death) when, in fact, it didn't really, so I've always been open to an 8:30am murder. But I don't know Abby.

[Abby Normal]

Hello, Abby.

Problem with this theory is that Maxwell claims to have known Kelly for four months, and we know that she only recently started taking in her fellow unfortunates. Barnett moved out at the end of October as a result of this, correct? So one would assume that Maxwell had made Mary Kelly's acquaintance before then.

Then again, the whole Mary Kelly murder is a riddle wrapped in an enigma.

Hi Harry
She knew Mary for four Months but only spoke to her twice. So that morning was the second time- so in four months before that she only spoke to her once.

whats wrong with this picture?

[RivkahChaya]

I've always been open to an 8:30am murder.

Me too-- or even a little earlier given that Maxwell probably gauged time by a common clock, and could have miscounted chimes, or missed a quarter hour. I'm willing to push her reported time back 25 minutes, or even speculate that she was wrong about the hour, and it was 7:xx, not 8.

[RivkahChaya]

Hi Harry
She knew Mary for four Months but only spoke to her twice. So that morning was the second time- so in four months before that she only spoke to her once.

whats wrong with this picture?

That we don't know how much alike the women looked. There was once someone in town who looked enough like me, people mistook us for each other from a distance, and I have a cousin I'm frequently confused with-- moreso when we were young. But I'll never be confused with a tall blonde with a small nose.

[Abby Normal]

Me too-- or even a little earlier given that Maxwell probably gauged time by a common clock, and could have miscounted chimes, or missed a quarter hour. I'm willing to push her reported time back 25 minutes, or even speculate that she was wrong about the hour, and it was 7:xx, not 8.

Hi RC
But she also claimed to see her again at 8:45-9:00 in a bar.
Not enough time for her to take a man back, big fire, murder, mutilation and man to leave in the middle of the morning before her body is discovered at 10:45. No way.

Also, for the millionth time-would Mary-with alcohol poisoning to the point of vomiting, be in the mood or condition to go BACK to a bar (after already being their once that morning) AND bring him back to her place, apparently for paid sex?
A little common sense here folks.

Maxwells story is so frought with problems she is only slightly ahead of Packer in terms of credibility IMHO.

Im not necessarily calling her a liar-just severely mistaken.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
She knew Mary for four Months but only spoke to her twice. So that morning was the second time- so in four months before that she only spoke to her once.

whats wrong with this picture?

Presumably MJK & Joseph Barnett were living together around the time Maxwell first met Kelly, so there weren't any other women staying at 13 Miller's Court to confuse identities.

[richardnunweek]

Hi..
Maxwell stated, that she had seen the deceased in the lodging house, making it entirely possible she had mistaken Kelly For Lizzie Allbrook, who worked in a lodging house in Dorset street..
If she was mistaken..and only ''If''..I believe that is the explanation.
Regards Richard.

[Pcdunn]

I think it was another witness who claimed to see Mary Kelly in the bar, but the rest of your first paragraph is correct.

But this is all based on the idea that IF Maxwell was correct in identifying Kelly, THEN she must have been murdered later... What if we look at it from a different point of view?

What if Mary and Joe decided to fix up a hoax to help Mary slip away from whatever she seemed to be afraid of (whether JtR, ex-boyfriend, McCarty, Fenians, fill in the blank), and they decided to let the room that night. Maybe Joe promised he'd handle the details if she went into hiding. Maybe he (or they) went out and found a woman (probably in a pub) that was similar to Mary Jane in height, hair and eye color, offered her a safe place in MJK's room, then went away. I don't think they meant to have the woman murdered, but needed an occupant in the place while they snuck away leaving the rent unpaid. Perhaps Mary Jane returned early in the morning, found the terrible scene, and became sick at the sight and her near escape. That would allow for the sightings of her that morning to make sense... Although, I admit, her actions the previous night, as well as being seen the following morning don't really make a lot of sense.

Unless Joe wanted a woman who resembled Mary in order to have her impersonate Mary, the previous evening. Was Hutchinson in on the plot as well?
Perhaps distracting the police with their search for a phony man in a fancy coat?

Joe identified the dead woman as Mary, because he knew she could still escape. Did he disappear as well?

[Wickerman]

Good point Richard.
When we look back at many of the earliest press reports published on Saturday 10th - for example the murdered woman lived upstairs and had a child, etc.
We normally dismiss these reports but they appear to indicate that even the close neighbors were confused as to who the victim actually was.