The Identity of Israel Schwartz

Since we now know that Toms taking offense was misplaced and that no offense was intended...just a pointer on broadly characterizing Socialist Jews in general...

My question on which Holiday is as Caps suggests....would this Holiday have been one of the High Holidays...the most scared days of the year?

Most people who call themselves any Christian religion dont practice their faith on a daily basis.....just a few days a year. Im raised Roman Catholic, went to church Sundays, Wednesdays and Friday nights until I was around 10.

Im much more spiritual a person than I was then, but I only enter a church for Christmas Mass, Easter, and weddings or funerals.

Best regards

[cappuccina]

...LOL...what a trip!

[Tom_Wescott]

Cappucinna,

Presumptuous is assuming someone else is wrong in their research simply because you can point to someone in your family who doesn't fit the details being discussed. That's also sophomoric. Why should someone take me seriously? Maybe because I've spent a lot of money on research materials concerning the IWEC and have read every newspaper report on the Casebook (and anywhere else I can find) regarding them and their activities. I own copies of the Worker's Friend.

In other words, I've spent the time and money and made the sacrifice so that I don't HAVE to be the presumptuous ass on a thread like this who disrupts the flow of conversation by always having to be corrected and coralled. Lord knows I don't know everything, or anywhere near what I'd LIKE to know, but I've learned a thing or two.

How do I know you haven't done your research? Because you think your 2nd cousin twice removed has f*ck all to do with a socialist club on Berner Street in the LVP.

I hope I've answered all your questions. If not, feel free to PM me. Next time you want to call me wrong and not look like a retard, please make sure I AM wrong and then show me how. Thanks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[cappuccina]

Thank you Perry/Michael, you are correct...

Westcott....you're a presumptuous a$$ as usual... but we already knew that...

Why should anyone take you, someone whose main claim to fame is his leading roles in horror films made in the tiki-themed depths of Wayne and Garth's basement, any more seriously than anyone else here...and how do you know what research I have or have not done on this case...you don't live in my house, do you? Jesus Christ, I hope not!

[Tom_Wescott]

My impression was Tom that Caps wasnt contradicting your claim regarding the International Club...just that Jewish Socialists do not always abandon Judaism completely.

I had made no claims about Jewish socialists. I spoke only of the IWEC. And I'm not sure I understand your quesiton about the holiday.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Just to appease my curiosity.....was the Holiday held on the Evening before the Double Event one of the very Holiest of days in Judaism?

Best regards.

My impression was Tom that Caps wasnt contradicting your claim regarding the International Club...just that Jewish Socialists do not always abandon Judaism completely.

Best regards.

[Tom_Wescott]

Don't think Caps, Michael. She's done zero research on the case and is talking out of her asterisk. Benjamin Feigelbaum and other leads would stand up in front of large crowds and challenge God to strike him down. When that didn't happen, he'd tell the crowd it was proof of God not existing. Stuff like this was powerful to the new 'recruits' they were pulling off the streets and it's how they swelled their numbers. The had to remove their faith before they could replace it with their agenda.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Also, about the Jewish Socialists....having people like this in my family, I can tell you that you are incorrect...

I wasn't aware that members of the IWEC are in your family? I love it when you use your personal experience and family to argue with history. It's predictable and easily overcome. For instance, consider the following from the Star of Sept. 14th, 1888. The IWEC roasted a pig for the Black Fast.

The Workers' Friend, the Hebrew Socialist paper, of this week, announces that as a protest against the Jewish religion and the Day of Atonement, the Jewish Socialists and Freethinkers have organised a banquet for tomorrow, which will take place at the International Working Men's Club, 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road. Speeches will be delivered in various languages. The announcement has caused much excitement amongst the orthodox Jews, and it is rumored that a disturbance may take place at the banquet. If so, the members of the International Working Men's Club state that they are prepared, and the aid of the police will not be called in to assist in quelling it. This banquet is unprecedented in Jewish history.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Also, about the Jewish Socialists....having people like this in my family, I can tell you that you are incorrect....a lot of these people felt "pulled" in multiple directions, rejected certain religious practices while still observing some practices or holidays...it was not necessarily a "mutually exclusive" kind of existence...And, even those Jews that did, in fact, reject most everything "religious", still considered themselves to be "cultural" Jews...

Thats the premise that inspired me to ask in the first place Caps....thanks. Was this holiday particularly Holy? Was this Roshashana?...my apologies for the spelling

All the best.

[cappuccina]

First of all "Schwatz" is an amazingly common name, not as common as Johnson or Smith is in theUS, for example, but pretty widespread nonetheless. So, you have to check to see if people are actually related or not....

Also, about the Jewish Socialists....having people like this in my family, I can tell you that you are incorrect....a lot of these people felt "pulled" in multiple directions, rejected certain religious practices while still observing some practices or holidays...it was not necessarily a "mutually exclusive" kind of existence...And, even those Jews that did, in fact, reject most everything "religious", still considered themselves to be "cultural" Jews...

Thanks for the answers folks....I wasnt aware that "Socialism" in the case of The Club members required the formal severance of any personal religious beliefs.

The cops didnt like anarchists, other Jews would look at the Socialists as heathens or godless people....seems like they had few friends outside their own affiliations.

I suppose what I was really looking for is something that might have drawn a Socialist Jew to the club that night....even if not for the meeting.

Best regards all.

[Tom_Wescott]

To join the IWEC you had to reject God and all the traditions of Judiasm, so they didn't observe holidays unless it was to mock them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

But why should the members of the club have "observances" ? They were socialists, weren't they ?

David, exactly right. Religion was anathema to them. In fact the observant Jews hated this socialist movement as they were somewhat established alongside the Anglicans and had no wish to create disharmony.

Cheers,

Mike

[Carrotty Nell]

According to Wikipedia, the Schwartz company was first founded in Canada in 1841, Nell. It looks like the "international" Schwartz brand might have been launched in earnest in 1889 by one William Schwartz. He was the son of a German immigrant who'd earlier settled in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Very interesting Sam. But I hope you noticed from my opening sentence that I was only joking.... I suppose I should have used one of those face efforts to indicate as such but as I am Autistic I don't understand what most of them mean and wouldn't know the appropriate one to pick!