The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Sam Flynn]

Fair enough, Sam. I guess I just don't see the argument you're making.

Thanks, Tom.

I'm really not arguing anything - just sharing an interesting snippet I discovered.

My guess about Israel Schwartz is that he went to New York, as many of the other Jews in the area (including IWEC men) were wont to do. They thought of London as a temporary stopover.

It's true that many of them did, but many stayed behind. Oddly enough, some who had intended to go to the States stopped off in England and stayed there, and many sailed first to New York and then to London - because it was often cheaper to do it that way! (Ref. Geoffrey Alderman, Modern British Jewry - a book I can heartily recommend.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Fair enough, Sam. I guess I just don't see the argument you're making. My guess about Israel Schwartz is that he went to New York, as many of the other Jews in the area (including IWEC men) were wont to do. They thought of London as a temporary stopover.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Have you already become married to this idea that if Schwartz was from Hungary he possessed some preternatural hatred for his brethren?

I never said anything of the kind, Tom - I found out an interesting historical fact that might have a bearing on the case. Nothing wrong in that. Why can't we be grateful for each other's finding things out in the spirit of knowledge-sharing, instead of prematurely urinating on any sparks that might threaten to send our own ideas up in smoke? God knows, I've been guilty of that in the past myself, and it's ultimately counterproductive.

[Tom_Wescott]

Sam,

Have you already become married to this idea that if Schwartz was from Hungary he possessed some preternatural hatred for his brethren? I'm sorry but I find that absurd. Besides, the IWEC were not religious and had members of all races and nationalities, so the rules of 'normal Jews' would obviously not apply to them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jimi,

Why would Yacuba Schwartz/ Israel Schwartz change his name to John Schwartz? Why not change his name to John smith or even John tailor?

Indeed - but then why change Yisroel/Jokanaan/Yeshua/Yakob/Yov to "John" and leave the "Schwartz" intact? Who knows?

[Sam Flynn]

When we know for a fact where Schwartz came from, we can then start applying 'general rules'.

I qualified my suggestion with an "if" in the first place, Tom. We do know, within reason, that Schwartz came from Hungary - and I've ID'ed a potential match from Budapest. Nothing more, nothing less. There's no need to jettison your interesting speculation that Schwartz was an IWEC member - although it could be a factor to bear in mind, which is all I said.

What if you were to learn of another Hungarian Jew frequenting the club?

Then I'd be interested to know whether he was a Western Hungarian or Eastern Hungarian - because apparently they didn't get on too well.

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz

Hi Sam, Hi all
If i may , i would like to ask what is probably a stupid question.
Why would Yacuba Schwartz/ Israel Schwartz change his name to John Schwartz?
Why not change his name to John smith or even John tailor? I just don`t understand if he was trying to Anglicize his name or seek anonimity, he should keep a very Hebrew surname when it surely wasn`t that difficult to change all his name.

Keep Well
Jimi

[Natalie Severn]

Who could that be Tom?

[Tom_Wescott]

When we know for a fact where Schwartz came from, we can then start applying 'general rules'. What we do know is that he lived on Berner Street, presumably on the same side of the street that the club was on, and that he was not apparently an hassidic Jew as he left the impression on the reporter as someone in the 'threatrical' trade, and of course there was only one spot on Berner Street where one could find Jews performing.

What if you were to learn of another Hungarian Jew frequenting the club?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Tom,

Not painting with a broad brush, so much as pointing out something which could have a significant bearing on the matter. Although I agree with you fully that we shouldn't entertain the possibility of exceptions, that doesn't mean that we should dismiss the general rule.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Sam. However, I think you're painting with that broad brush again as you sometimes do when it comes to Jews. History might eventually say that all white Americans hated black Americans in the 1950's and will point to our Jim Crow laws, etc. However, we know that was nowhere near the case. But let's for a moment imagine we took a white American circa 1950, who actually DID NOT care for blacks, the way you say Budapest Jews despised their co-religionists. Let's say we took this white man and dropped him in a city where the natives didn't speak his tongue, but he happened to live on the same small street as a club full of people speaking his language, and of similar customs, although many of the members were black. Don't you think the race of these men would not matter so much when faced with the alternative?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Where I speculate is that Schwartz was a member of the IWEC and might also have been accompanied to the police station by Wess. It's a very reasonable suggestion.

Indeed it is, Tom - although, if Schwartz really was from Budapest, there is a likelihood that he belonged to a class of Jew which actively despised Polish and Lithuanian Jews (Wess being Lithuanian, of course). From the mid-19th Century onwards, tensions between the two "castes" seems to have been worse than those between Jews and non-Jews. (For more info, check out "Jewish Budapest", by Kinga Frojimovics et al on Google books.) On that basis, whether the predominantly Polish emigrant fraternity of the IWEC, or indeed the majority Polish/Jewish community of the East End as a whole, would have been offered a welcome haven for a Western Hungarian Jew to hang out is a moot point.

Apart from the snobbery of the Western Hungarian Jews towards the Poles and Litvaks, they tended to be more Austro/German in their linguistic and cultural leanings, although Yiddish was used. A slightly different form of Yiddish to that with which Wess would have been familiar, but only by matter of degree.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom discussed with me once that he believed Wess acted as Goldstein's interpreter, and may have done so with Schwartz and his statement.

Actually, we know that William Wess accompanied Leon Goldstein to the police and acted as interpreter. Where I speculate is that Schwartz was a member of the IWEC and might also have been accompanied to the police station by Wess. It's a very reasonable suggestion but one that thus far lacks proof.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Strange that, Schwartz being described as theatrical, a relative of Tony Curtis no doubt. Just had look at Tony Curtis on WIk, born in NY of Hugarian Jewish parents from Mátészalka, Szatmár. His mother and brother were schizophrenic, his father was a tailor, and of course he played the Boston strangler.

all the best

Observer

We believe that the Schwartz we are concerned about was Hungarian, so "Buda Pescht" makes sense. Tom discussed with me once that he believed Wess acted as Goldstein's interpreter, and may have done so with Schwartz and his statement.

Which is interesting to me. Neither played any substantial role in the official proceedings, Schwartz had no overt role at all. Due in part to the reliability of accurate translations?...not citing Wess as one to worry about, just wondering.

Changing his name to John though is priceless really, if the same man. The first fully Hebrew yet generic suspect/witness, John Doe Schwartz.

All the best Gareth...thanks for the info.