The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Debra A]

Thanks for the info on Jacob everyone.

Just as an aside, but related to not being able to positively identify Israel in the 1891 census. When Gavin was writing his lodger piece for Ripperologist he did contact me to confirm that one side of Batty Street (not sure which side, sorry) was missing from the census site I use as it was completely missing from the ancestry site that he used. I am not sure if it was ever established that one side of Batty Street had been demolished by 1891, maybe Rob Clack or someone will know for definite, but if it was just missing (and any others in that area) it may be the reason that people like Schwartz, Philip and Leah Lipski etc. can't be found....Just a thought anyway.

Debs

[Robert]

Glad to hear that, Chris.

[Chris]

In the marriage registers, there is even a Mary Jacob Schwartz! I never knew such a confused lot of Schwartzes.

Looking at the page image on FreeBMD, that seems to be a transcription error - there is a Mary Schwartz on the line above Jacob Schwarz, and it looks as though they've somehow been combined.

[Robert]

Hi Chris

Yes, that's where Mary Jacob came from.

[Robert]

Hi folks

It looks like it could well be the same man, on the basis of the barber link.

But there was a Schwar(t)z family around that area at the time - a George Charles Schwarz was born 1890 in St Pancras, died there 94. And an Alfred George Schwartz was born and died in Holborn between 95 and 96. The Pancras one at least cannot be our family, as our George was born London City 1890.

In the marriage registers, there is even a Mary Jacob Schwartz! I never knew such a confused lot of Schwartzes.

[Chris]

Dean Street was just around the corner from Saffron Hill, where "my" J Schwarz was living with wife Emilia in 1891. This is the same chap whose name changed to "John Schwartz" by the time of the 1901 Census. The years of birth are slightly different (1863, 1860 and 1862 respectively), but within sufficient tolerance to ID these as one and the same man.

In that case I wonder whether this could be his marriage entry, from the FreeBMD index:
Marriages Dec 1889
SCHWARZ Jacob London C 1c 135

One of the two possible spouses with the same reference is a Millie KARATKIN.

[Sam Flynn]

I never did finish the project, but I wonder if the J Schwartz hairdresser at Holborn you identified is the same Jacob Swartz I found in 1881, living in Dean St. Holborn, London City.

I reckon so, Debs. Good catch.

Dean Street was just around the corner from Saffron Hill, where "my" J Schwarz was living with wife Emilia in 1891. This is the same chap whose name changed to "John Schwartz" by the time of the 1901 Census. The years of birth are slightly different (1863, 1860 and 1862 respectively), but within sufficient tolerance to ID these as one and the same man.

It's hard to imagine that someone who'd been in London for at least 7 years before the Whitechapel Murders would need an Hungarian interpreter. On that basis, I must acknowledge that another potential trail of gold might have turned into the usual stream of widdly-wee that Ripperologists have to contend with.

Bugger.

Sincere thanks for your help, all the same. If nothing else, this is a clear demo of how an immigrant "Jacob" can become "John" in the span of less than 20 years. Ever the optimist, me

[joelhall]

Been there, tried that, Joel This is a Schwartz thread, so I'd rather not go down the Morganstone route please.

I'd recommend Chris Scott's book, "JTR: A Cast of Thousands", which you can browse online here.

ah just a thought.

thanks for the link

[Sam Flynn]

what was that about a morgenstein? probably nothing, but just curious about the similarity with the morganstone whom kelly is alledged to have lived with.

Been there, tried that, Joel This is a Schwartz thread, so I'd rather not go down the Morganstone route please.

I'd recommend Chris Scott's book, "JTR: A Cast of Thousands", which you can browse online here.

[joelhall]

Indeed, Joel, but it's immaterial to the fact that Jewish immigrants often did anglicise their names - and there is plenty of evidence in the census records to demonstrate the fact.

For example, the 1891 Census shows that:

There were 273 Barnett {Bloomberg/Cohen/Rosenberg... etc}; 347 Lewis {Abrahams/Kaufmann/Morgenstein... etc}; 175 "John" {Goldman/Jacobs/Sussman... etc}; and a whopping great 882 gentlemen named "Maurice/Morris" {Goldberg/Liberman/Silverstein... etc}.

Now, all of the above-mentioned were Polish or Russian, and the vast majority of them lived in London's East End.

what was that about a morgenstein? probably nothing, but just curious about the similarity with the morganstone whom kelly is alledged to have lived with.

cheers

joel

[Sam Flynn]

perhaps, though nothing too convincing.

Indeed, Joel, but it's immaterial to the fact that Jewish immigrants often did anglicise their names - and there is plenty of evidence in the census records to demonstrate the fact.

For example, the 1891 Census shows that:

There were 273 Barnett {Bloomberg/Cohen/Rosenberg... etc}; 347 Lewis {Abrahams/Kaufmann/Morgenstein... etc}; 175 "John" {Goldman/Jacobs/Sussman... etc}; and a whopping great 882 gentlemen named "Maurice/Morris" {Goldberg/Liberman/Silverstein... etc}.

Now, all of the above-mentioned were Polish or Russian, and the vast majority of them lived in London's East End.

[joelhall]

...and somewhat disputed, Joel.

perhaps, though nothing too convincing.

[Sam Flynn]

especially given the segregation already mentioned

...and somewhat disputed, Joel.

i think its more likely he did not use an alias, or anglicise his name.

That doesn't follow, I'm afraid. Anglicisation of "foreign" names was surprisingly common amongst immigrants, Jews especially. Thus Eliezer (Lazarus) might become Laurence; Mordechai - Mark; Levi - Lewis; Baruch - Barnett; Moses - Maurice; Gershon - George... and so forth.

[Observer]

Hi Tom

Fair enough, Sam. I guess I just don't see the argument you're making. My guess about Israel Schwartz is that he went to New York, as many of the other Jews in the area (including IWEC men) were wont to do. They thought of London as a temporary stopover.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Including Tony Curtis's (Bernard Schwartz) mother and father

all the best

Observer

[joelhall]

You mean "alias", I think, Joel.

If so, I should point out that we're not talking about aliases in this instance, but mis-spellings in census returns, passenger lists, newspaper reports. We're also talking about Eastern European names in Yiddish/Hebrew, German, Polish or Cyrillic containing letters that had no direct equivalent in the English alphabet - or names that got distorted because the English couldn't pronounce them. Add to that the known and widespread convention among immigrant Jews of anglicising their own names - out of a desire to "blend in", perhaps - and you'll realise what we're up against. You name it - it happens, and very, very frequently.

Oh, and some people actually did use aliases too - probably the most notable in the broad context of Late Victorian Whitechapel being Lipski, LeGrand, Winchevsky, Kłosowski and Flemming.

haha, yes youre absolutely right. sorry mind was elsewhere. just seems everyone is looking for something they probably wont find. even so far as english names. to be honest im doubtful some of this information was in the records in the first place. in the 19th century it was far harder to police this type of thing.

dont misunderstand me, im not for one minute suggesting we stop looking and accept defeat, far from it. in fact, im sure there could be an 'israle swuts', 'izrail shorts' 'i. short' or 'izale shworts' noted somewhere, or even plenty of 'david cohen's where the name couldnt be spelt. and i also think theres a good (or even better most likely) chance we just havent looked in the right places yet.

especially given the segregation already mentioned, i think its more likely he did not use an alias, or anglicise his name.

just a few thoughts anyhow

joel