The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Carrotty Nell]

I'm usually quite a sensible poster but...

I was shopping in Sainsbury's last night and noticed that the Schwartz Spice Company was founded in 1889 according to their labels. Did Israel found the company using hush money paid to him by someone like William Druitt/Isaac Kozminsky?

[Sam Flynn]

I'm usually quite a sensible poster but...

I was shopping in Sainsbury's last night and noticed that the Schwartz Spice Company was founded in 1889 according to their labels. Did Israel found the company using hush money paid to him by someone like William Druitt/Isaac Kozminsky?

According to Wikipedia, the Schwartz company was first founded in Canada in 1841, Nell. It looks like the "international" Schwartz brand might have been launched in earnest in 1889 by one William Schwartz. He was the son of a German immigrant who'd earlier settled in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Someone observed earlier that Schwartz may not have been very connected to his religion.. in the way many other Eastern Europeans immigrants were.

The Double Event night he is out on was a High Holiday, wasnt it? Whats a more traditional way of spending that Holiday...are there midday prayer services, or evening prayers with Supper that were traditional?

Im wondering if this was a day of some significance to people following Judaism, would the International Club have observances that night before or after the meeting?

Is there a difference in how Reformed and Orthodox Jews would observe a day like this?

Any help is appreciated, best regards.

[DVV]

Hi Mike,
can't help you, I'm Catholic (and somehow specialist of Ethiopian Islam), sorry...
But why should the members of the club have "observances" ? They were socialists, weren't they ?

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Carrotty Nell]

According to Wikipedia, the Schwartz company was first founded in Canada in 1841, Nell. It looks like the "international" Schwartz brand might have been launched in earnest in 1889 by one William Schwartz. He was the son of a German immigrant who'd earlier settled in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Very interesting Sam. But I hope you noticed from my opening sentence that I was only joking.... I suppose I should have used one of those face efforts to indicate as such but as I am Autistic I don't understand what most of them mean and wouldn't know the appropriate one to pick!

[The Good Michael]

But why should the members of the club have "observances" ? They were socialists, weren't they ?

David, exactly right. Religion was anathema to them. In fact the observant Jews hated this socialist movement as they were somewhat established alongside the Anglicans and had no wish to create disharmony.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

To join the IWEC you had to reject God and all the traditions of Judiasm, so they didn't observe holidays unless it was to mock them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Thanks for the answers folks....I wasnt aware that "Socialism" in the case of The Club members required the formal severance of any personal religious beliefs.

The cops didnt like anarchists, other Jews would look at the Socialists as heathens or godless people....seems like they had few friends outside their own affiliations.

I suppose what I was really looking for is something that might have drawn a Socialist Jew to the club that night....even if not for the meeting.

Best regards all.

[cappuccina]

First of all "Schwatz" is an amazingly common name, not as common as Johnson or Smith is in theUS, for example, but pretty widespread nonetheless. So, you have to check to see if people are actually related or not....

Also, about the Jewish Socialists....having people like this in my family, I can tell you that you are incorrect....a lot of these people felt "pulled" in multiple directions, rejected certain religious practices while still observing some practices or holidays...it was not necessarily a "mutually exclusive" kind of existence...And, even those Jews that did, in fact, reject most everything "religious", still considered themselves to be "cultural" Jews...

[perrymason]

Also, about the Jewish Socialists....having people like this in my family, I can tell you that you are incorrect....a lot of these people felt "pulled" in multiple directions, rejected certain religious practices while still observing some practices or holidays...it was not necessarily a "mutually exclusive" kind of existence...And, even those Jews that did, in fact, reject most everything "religious", still considered themselves to be "cultural" Jews...

Thats the premise that inspired me to ask in the first place Caps....thanks. Was this holiday particularly Holy? Was this Roshashana?...my apologies for the spelling

All the best.

[Tom_Wescott]

Also, about the Jewish Socialists....having people like this in my family, I can tell you that you are incorrect...

I wasn't aware that members of the IWEC are in your family? I love it when you use your personal experience and family to argue with history. It's predictable and easily overcome. For instance, consider the following from the Star of Sept. 14th, 1888. The IWEC roasted a pig for the Black Fast.

The Workers' Friend, the Hebrew Socialist paper, of this week, announces that as a protest against the Jewish religion and the Day of Atonement, the Jewish Socialists and Freethinkers have organised a banquet for tomorrow, which will take place at the International Working Men's Club, 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road. Speeches will be delivered in various languages. The announcement has caused much excitement amongst the orthodox Jews, and it is rumored that a disturbance may take place at the banquet. If so, the members of the International Working Men's Club state that they are prepared, and the aid of the police will not be called in to assist in quelling it. This banquet is unprecedented in Jewish history.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Don't think Caps, Michael. She's done zero research on the case and is talking out of her asterisk. Benjamin Feigelbaum and other leads would stand up in front of large crowds and challenge God to strike him down. When that didn't happen, he'd tell the crowd it was proof of God not existing. Stuff like this was powerful to the new 'recruits' they were pulling off the streets and it's how they swelled their numbers. The had to remove their faith before they could replace it with their agenda.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

My impression was Tom that Caps wasnt contradicting your claim regarding the International Club...just that Jewish Socialists do not always abandon Judaism completely.

Best regards.

[perrymason]

Just to appease my curiosity.....was the Holiday held on the Evening before the Double Event one of the very Holiest of days in Judaism?

Best regards.

[Tom_Wescott]

My impression was Tom that Caps wasnt contradicting your claim regarding the International Club...just that Jewish Socialists do not always abandon Judaism completely.

I had made no claims about Jewish socialists. I spoke only of the IWEC. And I'm not sure I understand your quesiton about the holiday.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott