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Hello all,
It seems when discussing the Stride murder, the witnesses and the timings provided to us by said witnesses, there is little attention paid to the comments made by Issac Kozebrodski. A statement that was taken within an hour of the arrival of the policemen at 40 Berner Street. In the Daily News of Oct 1st that interview ran, as follows;
"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".
There are within that statement several very important markers and events. one is the time that this happened at, another is his statement that he was sent out for help alone, and another, a point that seems to enhance his statement is the fact that the blood had not flowed almost to the side door yet. In fact there are comments that are, if accurately recorded, direct refutations of the statements made by Morris Eagle, Joseph Lave, Israel Schwartz and Louis Diemshitz.
This statement, when compared with that of Abraham Ho(e)schberg is interesting;
"Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or, at all events, always unfastened. There are some stables up there - Messrs. Duncan, Woollatt, and Co.'s, I believe and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of them would be there, though, after about one on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman, and I do not think she belonged to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body."
It appears that Issac's recollection of the time he was alerted to the body is a few minutes before the time Abraham was, which would be natural since Isaac helped Louis around the club. He would have been first called to assist before the others were notified. That statement also places Issac by a downed Liz Stride at around 12:40am. It also establishes a third and unreported party who went out in search of police. Isaac says he left alone, as requested by Louis....so why wouldn't Louis have mentioned that to the police?
One reason might be that the story, if true, directly contradicts the story that Louis and Morris provide...both of whom had high profile roles at the club, and therefore the most among the members to lose if the club was held responsible for the murder. Issac also contradicts Israel Schwartz's statement.
It would seem prudent, if you are unwilling to accept Issacs recollections as a whole, to at least establish that according to Issac, he did not accompany Louis to go look for help. This statement was too soon after the discovery to not assume a fairly sound recollection of events.
So;
1. If Issac and Abraham were correct on the time, who lied about it?
2. If Issac and Abraham's time roughly corresponds to the times given by Spooner, which it does, then what time might Louis have actually arrived?
3. If the cut was made between 12:46 and 12:56, according to Dr Blackwell, was Liz likely alive or already cut when Louis would have arrived?
4. If Issac, Abraham and Edward were correct about the timing, then why did Israel Schwartz come forward Sunday night stating that he saw what he saw outside the gates at around 12:45?
5. If Fanny Mortimer was correct, and Issac and Abraham and Edward were correct, then what did Leon Goldstein really see when he passed the gates?
6. If Issac K didn't leave the yard with Louis looking for help, then who is this Issacs fellow?
The point of this exercise is to help illustrate that the people most students believe are the ones that were most responsible for goings on at the club. The ones that ultimately stood to lose money, reputation and perhaps liberty if the club was believed guilty in some fashion. The statements made by the bystander people in this story....Fanny, Edward, Issac, Morris, James Brown, PC Smith, had no reason to lie or embellish.
IF we believe the ones without built in motivation for deceiving, and that had a much better more respectable public image, as compared with being a high profile member of an anarchists club, then this event looks much differently;
12:35-40 After PC Smith leaves Louis arrives, Issac is summoned, Abraham and others are summoned including Morris upstairs.
12:45 Issac leaves to look for help
1:05 Morris, and Louis and someone named Issacs, go out to search for police.
Anyone notice a huge gap there....from 12:45 until 1:05? Is that when the men concoct the story...a story that Issac soon contradicts because he left before it was created?
Before anyone attempts to contradict these facts, which they are...remember that they are accurate reflections and recitations of witness statements. Israel Schwartz, a man who it appears was a friend of Woolf Wess, comes in Sunday night to make a claim that is just what the club needed, and just what the police hoped for...a lead.
Context is everything.
Cheers
It seems when discussing the Stride murder, the witnesses and the timings provided to us by said witnesses, there is little attention paid to the comments made by Issac Kozebrodski. A statement that was taken within an hour of the arrival of the policemen at 40 Berner Street. In the Daily News of Oct 1st that interview ran, as follows;
"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".
There are within that statement several very important markers and events. one is the time that this happened at, another is his statement that he was sent out for help alone, and another, a point that seems to enhance his statement is the fact that the blood had not flowed almost to the side door yet. In fact there are comments that are, if accurately recorded, direct refutations of the statements made by Morris Eagle, Joseph Lave, Israel Schwartz and Louis Diemshitz.
This statement, when compared with that of Abraham Ho(e)schberg is interesting;
"Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or, at all events, always unfastened. There are some stables up there - Messrs. Duncan, Woollatt, and Co.'s, I believe and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of them would be there, though, after about one on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman, and I do not think she belonged to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body."
It appears that Issac's recollection of the time he was alerted to the body is a few minutes before the time Abraham was, which would be natural since Isaac helped Louis around the club. He would have been first called to assist before the others were notified. That statement also places Issac by a downed Liz Stride at around 12:40am. It also establishes a third and unreported party who went out in search of police. Isaac says he left alone, as requested by Louis....so why wouldn't Louis have mentioned that to the police?
One reason might be that the story, if true, directly contradicts the story that Louis and Morris provide...both of whom had high profile roles at the club, and therefore the most among the members to lose if the club was held responsible for the murder. Issac also contradicts Israel Schwartz's statement.
It would seem prudent, if you are unwilling to accept Issacs recollections as a whole, to at least establish that according to Issac, he did not accompany Louis to go look for help. This statement was too soon after the discovery to not assume a fairly sound recollection of events.
So;
1. If Issac and Abraham were correct on the time, who lied about it?
2. If Issac and Abraham's time roughly corresponds to the times given by Spooner, which it does, then what time might Louis have actually arrived?
3. If the cut was made between 12:46 and 12:56, according to Dr Blackwell, was Liz likely alive or already cut when Louis would have arrived?
4. If Issac, Abraham and Edward were correct about the timing, then why did Israel Schwartz come forward Sunday night stating that he saw what he saw outside the gates at around 12:45?
5. If Fanny Mortimer was correct, and Issac and Abraham and Edward were correct, then what did Leon Goldstein really see when he passed the gates?
6. If Issac K didn't leave the yard with Louis looking for help, then who is this Issacs fellow?
The point of this exercise is to help illustrate that the people most students believe are the ones that were most responsible for goings on at the club. The ones that ultimately stood to lose money, reputation and perhaps liberty if the club was believed guilty in some fashion. The statements made by the bystander people in this story....Fanny, Edward, Issac, Morris, James Brown, PC Smith, had no reason to lie or embellish.
IF we believe the ones without built in motivation for deceiving, and that had a much better more respectable public image, as compared with being a high profile member of an anarchists club, then this event looks much differently;
12:35-40 After PC Smith leaves Louis arrives, Issac is summoned, Abraham and others are summoned including Morris upstairs.
12:45 Issac leaves to look for help
1:05 Morris, and Louis and someone named Issacs, go out to search for police.
Anyone notice a huge gap there....from 12:45 until 1:05? Is that when the men concoct the story...a story that Issac soon contradicts because he left before it was created?
Before anyone attempts to contradict these facts, which they are...remember that they are accurate reflections and recitations of witness statements. Israel Schwartz, a man who it appears was a friend of Woolf Wess, comes in Sunday night to make a claim that is just what the club needed, and just what the police hoped for...a lead.
Context is everything.
Cheers
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