Does The Star Article Show That Schwartz Was Discredited?

[Michael W Richards]

I appreciate the sentiments SW and JD, I think anyone who imagines these cases in isolation is making a major mistake, some of these killings were merely a product of the times. Looking at any news its easy to see Terrorism is primarily intended to shock and frighten, not to educate people about any legitimate grievances of an ethnic or political group. As I once said to AP here, I think some of these may just be earlier examples of it.

Lest we not forget that the year following the so-called Ripper murders it was suggested by a senior official that he suspected a man behind the plot to assassinate Lord Balfour was also the so-called Ripper. I suppose its one example that justifies any credible search for links to any of the more militant and anarchistic groups working in London and Paris at the time.....oh yeah, Gay Paris, where Anderson returned from.... after leaving abruptly... at the height of the Ripper panic, and just after being appointed to the head position. Odd that he didn't mention Paris when we heard he was off to Switzerland for some rest.

I believe that the 2 women I can see any possible associations with any Irish factions would be Kate and Mary...Mr Conway, the man behind the TC on Kates arm, was involved within the Irish military and the community, and its quite possible that Mary may have had some similar friends due to her heritage and possible acquaintances made while as an escort in Paris. Is it possible that their deaths were connected in that fashion....sure. Is it possible that Kates use of the names and addresses in her last 24 hours Jane Kelly and Mary Kelly, at 6 Dorset Street/Fashion Street, indicate some knowledge of each other? Sure...why not?

Is it possible that some of the Ripper deaths were about silence rather than madness? Well, I know some secrets were going for a pretty heady rate at the Commission, and that when there are dangerous secrets around some people become unwitting risks to others.

Kate with her nose sliced off...to keep it to herself, and Mary, with her face all but obliterated.

Cheers

[jerryd]

Are you aware that the majority of the senior investigators in the Ripper cases were seasoned professional liars, conspirators, and that they financially aided anarchists for their assault upon England and the throne?

You and others talk about conspiracies like they were fantasies all the while ignoring those blatant facts.....the high level men investigating the Ripper cases were trained in deceit, falsifying evidence and creating erroneous cover stories. To think that they might have done so with these cases? Ohh...that's such nonsense is it?

At least you gave me a laugh out loud...so thanks for that.

Michael,

Not non-sense at all in my opinion. Just look at the Cleveland Street Scandal, full of lies and deception from High ranking officials both in and out of the police force. I've often wondered why Abberline migrated into that investigation? Was it because of his great ability to solve the Ripper case?

A quote from Matt Cook's book: London and the Culture of Homosexuality, 1885-1914.

The press drew attention to this supposed laxity and suggested a cosseted subculture which was protected at the highest levels. They foregrounded Saul's comment in the Euston libel trial that the police 'had been kind to him' and turned a blind eye 'to more than him'. Wide coverage also attended T.P O'Connor's observation in the Commons that whilst detectives 'dogged' Irish MP's, none could be found to 'dog the footsteps of a ruffian who, for upwards of a year, has kept a house in the city which has brought disgrace on the character of the city'.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

Holy Moly!

What a joy. Someone else who gets it.

Keep it up.

Regards,

Simon

[Michael W Richards]

Like the JtR was Real Association building a time machine to travel back to Victorian era London to write the Dear Boss letter?

Are you aware that the majority of the senior investigators in the Ripper cases were seasoned professional liars, conspirators, and that they financially aided anarchists for their assault upon England and the throne?

You and others talk about conspiracies like they were fantasies all the while ignoring those blatant facts.....the high level men investigating the Ripper cases were trained in deceit, falsifying evidence and creating erroneous cover stories. To think that they might have done so with these cases? Ohh...that's such nonsense is it?

At least you gave me a laugh out loud...so thanks for that.

[Abby Normal]

The most successful conspiracies are those about which nobody knows anything and suspect even less.

Like the JtR was Real Association building a time machine to travel back to Victorian era London to write the Dear Boss letter?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Simon,

I can think of a few -- sickness on Schwartz's part, inability to obtain a translator, possibly a deal cut with Schwartz when he initially gave his story to the police that he wouldn't have to appear at the inquest. Possibly, as Tom suggests, the police held his testimony back for some reason. Or it simply could be because given the apparent problem in getting his story straight in the first place (since it appears he was never completely clear on what was going on exacerbated by the language hurdle) that the police felt it would just confuse the jurors.

Finally, since no one was actually on trial, the jurors were going to return a verdict of the old person or persons unknown with or without Schwartz's testimony.

c.d.

There is ample evidence that Lawende was at the Eddowes Inquest, there is also ample evidence that he was sequestered before the Inquest, there is also evidence provided at the Inquest that Lawendes account would not be given in full, and that some of his statement was withheld.

Any evidence of ANY of that in Israels case? What is most annoying here cd is when members choose to believe whatever they wish to without providing a sound argument to back it up, yet they feel free to attempt to discredit others who do provide evidence.

Heres your evidence in this instance...without ANY record of Israel Schwartz attending the Inquest, without ANY evidence that his statement was withheld from it, without ANY evidence that his statement was entered into the records in his absence, that his statement was submitted by someone else, or that his story was given ANY consideration at the Inquest into the murder person he says he saw minutes before her death being assaulted,.....there is no reason whatsoever to assume, regardless of those fact,s that he was there and/or his story mattered.

Its fantasy...and I understand that we are just investigating real events here.

[Simon Wood]

The most successful conspiracies are those about which nobody knows anything and suspect even less.

[Hunter]

Incredibly simple.

No conspiracy is simple.

[Garry Wroe]

In addition to which, Carrie Maxwell appeared before the Kelly inquest despite police scepticism regarding her story. In short, the decision as to who did and who did not appear before the coroner was made by the coroner himself, and it would have been an offence for investigators to have withheld witness statements from him.

[Wickerman]

Finally, since no one was actually on trial, the jurors were going to return a verdict of the old person or persons unknown with or without Schwartz's testimony.

Correct, this theory suffers from a confusion between what an Inquest is intended to do, and the quite separate police inquiry leading to a murder trial.

Schwartz's testimony at an inquest has no bearing on the interruptus theory.
The Coroner merely needs to determine the Who, When, Where, and by What means, the victim met her death.
As Schwartz only witnesses an assault (push & pull?), with no visible weapon held by BS-man, then his sighting has no impact on the interruptus theory.

[Wickerman]

The litmus test of any good theory is to incorporate all the known evidence.

So if I am reading this right, at some point on 2nd Oct. Scotland Yard chose not to accept Schwartz's story, which would account for the "Leman-st. doubters" referred to in the press of the same evening. Hence, they withhold his statement from Coroner Baxter.

How then to account for Swanson's undeniable support for the evidence given by Schwartz to the Home Office by the 19th Oct?, and exchanges between Matthews & Lushington dated 25th, 27th, & 29th Oct.

Not forgetting the official murder file compiled on 19th Oct listing both PC Smith & Schwartz alone, under the heading, "Men seen with deceased".

Then we have the continued belief in Schwartz as expressed by Abberline in his reply to Anderson dated 1st Nov. Also, Anderson's apparent belief that Schwartz did appear at the Inquest, dated 5th Nov., and finally Charles Warren mentioning Schwartz in his report to the Home Office dated 6th Nov.

That represents about 6 weeks of continued interest between Scotland Yard and the Home Office, referring in a positive context about the viability of Schwartz as a witness.

Incredibly complex.

[Simon Wood]

Incredibly simple.

[Hunter]

Simply incredible.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Both.

Because [a] it did not fit the humongous interuptuz, they [b] doubted his story.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

So which was it Simon, (a) they doubted his story, or (b) did it not fit the humongous interuptuz thing you said?

Roy