Did a police officer see a ripper suspect, right after the 2nd of the double murders?

[Richard Patterson]

Hi Billiou,

Very interesting observations. Your point about Mitre Square being a cul-de-sac only to vehicular traffic is valuable. I will be incorporating it into future updates to my book. Thank you very much for the insights.

All the best,
Richard

[wigngown]

Hello Richard,
Very interesting. Thanks for posting. I've often wondered if the man the Officer saw on that early morning was indeed the killer.
Best regards.

[S.Brett]

Hi Billou!

a "bitter cold night", I doubt that this could be the site as Alice McKenzie's murder took place in July 1889, in the middle of the summer

You might be interested in:

July 1888 (!)

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/59481-the-times-12th-july-1888-did-it-snow-in-london/

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/22806.html

http://booty.org.uk/booty.weather/climate/1850_1899.htm

July 1889:

Temperature July 1889: Lowest values occurred between the 8th and 11th over the western parts of the kingdom and between the 17th and 19th in the most other places...

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/c/c/Jul1889.pdf

It is quite possible that there were some "bitter cold nights" in July 1888 and 1889.

Best Regards,

Karsten.

[jerryd]

I've always discounted the site being Castle Alley for various reasons. However, there are reports in the press that an ex-metropolitan police officer was standing about 50 yards from the murder scene at the time of the crime and also an officer stationed very near the Whitechapel Street entrance to Castle Alley. It is stated he would have been within 10 yards of the murderer if he left via that entrance/exit. Neither names are mentioned.

[David Orsam]

I have read that some people discount Mitre Square as they think it is not a cul-de-sac. If it is not a cul-de-sac, then what is? A cul-de-sac is a road that ends in a dead-end, a "no through road". A dead-end for traffic. Any pedestrian alley or passage does not make a dead-end not a dead-end for traffic.

Mitre Square doesn't fit my definition of a cul-de-sac and, as a matter of English (which is ironic considering the Frenchness of the term) I don't think it is. Here's how the Oxford English Dictionary describes a cul-de-sac:

"A street, lane, or passage closed at one end, a blind alley; a place having no outlet except by the entrance."

A square, however, is something different:

"An open space or area (approximately quadrilateral and rectangular) in a town or city, enclosed by buildings or dwelling-houses, esp. of a superior or residential kind, freq. containing a garden or laid out with trees, etc.; more generally, any open space resembling this, esp. one formed at the meeting or intersection of streets; (also) the group of houses surrounding an area of this kind."

Also, defining a square as a cul-de-sac because vehicles can't exit seems rather arbitrary to me. An open square with multiple exits for pedestrians but a cul-de-sac for vehicles? I don't think so really.

[Elamarna]

Mitre Square doesn't fit my definition of a cul-de-sac and, as a matter of English (which is ironic considering the Frenchness of the term) I don't think it is. Here's how the Oxford English Dictionary describes a cul-de-sac:

"A street, lane, or passage closed at one end, a blind alley; a place having no outlet except by the entrance."

A square, however, is something different:

"An open space or area (approximately quadrilateral and rectangular) in a town or city, enclosed by buildings or dwelling-houses, esp. of a superior or residential kind, freq. containing a garden or laid out with trees, etc.; more generally, any open space resembling this, esp. one formed at the meeting or intersection of streets; (also) the group of houses surrounding an area of this kind."

Also, defining a square as a cul-de-sac because vehicles can't exit seems rather arbitrary to me. An open square with multiple exits for pedestrians but a cul-de-sac for vehicles? I don't think so really.

David

you may recall a while back I had a debate if Mitre Square was a yard or a square.

I agree with you, it is very hard to call it a cul-de.sac.

The report being discussed is not first hand , there is much debate over the authenticity if any of said report.
None of the sites fit the description.

However it is not impossible that there is a kernel of truth at the bottom of the report, that is someone saw someone close to a murder site a matter of seconds before a body was discovered. in such a case the description of the site, as well as the action may be greatly changed from what was originally said, if anything was that is.

Steve

[Fleetwood Mac]

Although there were two entries into the place where McKenzie was killed it does seem to be the best bet, considering it was "just behind the Whitechapel Road" and Stephen White saw someone with illuminous eyes.

I would say though it would only take someone to not know the scene very well to be mistaken, or they may have a certain idea of what a cul-de-sac is that doesn't tally with a dictionary.

McKenzie is problematic if you think he was tucked away in an asylum by that point, but I tend to think that he killed more than 5.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Mitre Square doesn't fit my definition of a cul-de-sac and, as a matter of English (which is ironic considering the Frenchness of the term) I don't think it is. Here's how the Oxford English Dictionary describes a cul-de-sac:

"A street, lane, or passage closed at one end, a blind alley; a place having no outlet except by the entrance."

A square, however, is something different:

"An open space or area (approximately quadrilateral and rectangular) in a town or city, enclosed by buildings or dwelling-houses, esp. of a superior or residential kind, freq. containing a garden or laid out with trees, etc.; more generally, any open space resembling this, esp. one formed at the meeting or intersection of streets; (also) the group of houses surrounding an area of this kind."

Also, defining a square as a cul-de-sac because vehicles can't exit seems rather arbitrary to me. An open square with multiple exits for pedestrians but a cul-de-sac for vehicles? I don't think so really.

I agree with that.

By definition a through road for a pedestrian means it isn't a cul-de-sac.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I agree with that.

By definition a through road for a pedestrian means it isn't a cul-de-sac.

The other possibility is that Castle Alley was termed a cul-de-sac because they had people blocking one of the entries.

[Billiou]

Hi Billou!



You might be interested in:

July 1888 (!)

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/59481-the-times-12th-july-1888-did-it-snow-in-london/

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/22806.html

http://booty.org.uk/booty.weather/climate/1850_1899.htm

July 1889:

Temperature July 1889: Lowest values occurred between the 8th and 11th over the western parts of the kingdom and between the 17th and 19th in the most other places...

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/c/c/Jul1889.pdf

It is quite possible that there were some "bitter cold nights" in July 1888 and 1889.

Best Regards,

Karsten.

It also says the mean was lower than the average for July... by one or two degrees over the greater part of England..... most other places but at several of the eastern and southern stations the lowest readings were observed on the 23rd or 24th....

Yes, quite possibly there were some cold nights in July 1889 and without actual known temperatures in London at the time it will remain debatable.

[Billiou]

But then again, I suppose the most telling part of the "report" is:

"The mystery, however, that baffled the police more than anything was how the murderer and the victim managed to get into the alley under the eyes of the watching police. It was clear that the couple had not been in any of the houses, and they were not known to any of the residents. Therefore they must have passed into the alley from the Whitechapel Road, and the two police officers were positive that in the four hours of their vigil not a soul had entered the alley. White had his own suspicions regarding the truth of this declaration, and his suspicions were shared by Sir Robert Anderson, who afterwards in comparing notes with White, expressed the opinion that the murderer and his victim had entered the close during the temporary absence of the two watching policeman. The men afterwards admitted that they had gone away for not more than a minute. It was a very short absence undoubtedly, but it was long enough to give the murderer time to walk into the alley with his victim".

This, I think, can only be Castle Alley.....

And as there were houses in the alley, someone coming out of the alley wouldn't have been immediately suspicious, not until McKenzie was found. It wasn't until after they questioned residents did they realise that the couple must have entered from Whitechapel.

I'm wondering, the map I've been referring to is the 1894 Ordinance map of Whitechapel. Do we know if Castle Alley was a throughway to Old Castle Street in 1888?

[jerryd]

Do we know if Castle Alley was a throughway to Old Castle Street in 1888?

Yes, it was.