A stout JtR?

[RockySullivan]

He fits the description pretty well. Drinking beer, red hair and mustache, build, dress-and I wonder if the hollow under the cheeks could have something to do with the blotches described by cox.

Interesting Abby I wonder what photos are available of the members. I wonder if perhaps one of Lusks fellow members had a connection to the London hospital like I read me lusk had. Or anyone who lives or work near whitehall I think might be of particular interest. If the ripper was a member of the vigilance committee he might stand out easily in hindsight by his connections to certain addresses

[Wickerman]

We can't be sure of this. Records are incomplete or missing (ie., City Police).

Indeed, yet I am reminded by the words of Anderson on 23rd Oct. when he wrote about, "...not having the slightest clue of any kind in extraordinary, if not unique..." etc.

Then by the middle of November when police interest was primarily focused on Blotchy & Astrachan, neither of whom could be regarded as an indication of police interest in a 23 yrs old Kozminski character.

[Michael W Richards]

He fits the description pretty well. Drinking beer, red hair and mustache, build, dress-and I wonder if the hollow under the cheeks could have something to do with the blotches described by cox.

An interesting note on comparisons in this case...both Blotchy and Astrakan resemble very closely 2 individuals that were deeply involved in Irish Self Rule anarchist activities, Astrakans description is almost an exact match with the individual Im speaking of....the same individual who was suggested by a senior investigator as the author of the Balfour Assassination plot that was ongoing at the time of the unsolved murders.

Big Red McDermott and Francis Millen.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

An interesting note on comparisons in this case...both Blotchy and Astrakan resemble very closely 2 individuals that were deeply involved in Irish Self Rule anarchist activities, Astrakans description is almost an exact match with the individual Im speaking of....the same individual who was suggested by a senior investigator as the author of the Balfour Assassination plot that was ongoing at the time of the unsolved murders.

Big Red McDermott and Francis Millen.

Cheers

Hi Michael.
Hasn't someone pointed out that Millen was not in the country at the time?
(He didn't strike me as Jewish either)

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael.
Hasn't someone pointed out that Millen was not in the country at the time?
(He didn't strike me as Jewish either)

I know that a contention has been made that he was elsewhere at the time, by Simon I believe,... which could indicate to me that its possible Hutchinson was attempting to implicate someone he didn't know was unavailable. The description of Astrakan is almost identical to what is known of Millen. Another eerily spooky coincidence in this storyline....I don't believe in coincidence as much as I believe humans are very capable of lies.

Cheers John

[Wickerman]

I know that a contention has been made that he was elsewhere at the time, by Simon I believe,... which could indicate to me that its possible Hutchinson was attempting to implicate someone he didn't know was unavailable. The description of Astrakan is almost identical to what is known of Millen. Another eerily spooky coincidence in this storyline....I don't believe in coincidence as much as I believe humans are very capable of lies.

Cheers John

Ah, so now we are to believe Hutchinson knew of Millen?
But of course, if he had no idea who Millen was then the theory is a bust...

Did Millen own a imitation gold watch chain? - Isaacs did.
Was Millen Jewish? - Isaacs was.
Did Millen have cause to be in the area? - Isaacs did.

If it walks like a duck....

If Millen wore a gold watch chain, it would be real gold, Michael.

[Michael W Richards]

Ah, so now we are to believe Hutchinson knew of Millen?
But of course, if he had no idea who Millen was then the theory is a bust...

Did Millen own a imitation gold watch chain? - Isaacs did.
Was Millen Jewish? - Isaacs was.
Did Millen have cause to be in the area? - Isaacs did.

If it walks like a duck....

If Millen wore a gold watch chain, it would be real gold, Michael.

For one Jon, how would Hutchinson be able to tell real gold from imitation in the middle of the night from across the street...and that also goes for the rest of his creative description? Check the pin details....that's Millen all the way. And Millen would always have a reason to be in the area where fenian operatives were entrenched. I don't discount Joe Issacs at all....dont get me wrong...he smells off on the page and he may well have been the "other Joe", ....but what if someone wanted to finger Millen, or get him arrested on suspicion?

This murder may well have Irish roots, Mary and/or her killer, and in context with the hearings, fingering Millen on the streets would have been worth some money to the person responsible.

Just for the discussion.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

For one Jon, how would Hutchinson be able to tell real gold from imitation in the middle of the night from across the street...

To be fair, he only claimed it was gold.
My question should have been, did Millen own a gold watch chain?
Do we have to assume he did own one just to make him fit?

Check the pin details....that's Millen all the way. And Millen would always have a reason to be in the area where fenian operatives were entrenched.

So he was in England then?
Isn't that the first priority, to establish he was actually in England?
The whole pack of cards falls apart otherwise.

I don't discount Joe Issacs at all....dont get me wrong...he smells off on the page and he may well have been the "other Joe", ....but what if someone wanted to finger Millen, or get him arrested on suspicion?

Not much use if he had a alibi, like having lunch in New York!!!


Why should anyone take 'Millen' as a serious suggestion?

[Michael W Richards]

To be fair, he only claimed it was gold.
My question should have been, did Millen own a gold watch chain?
Do we have to assume he did own one just to make him fit?




So he was in England then?
Isn't that the first priority, to establish he was actually in England?
The whole pack of cards falls apart otherwise.



Not much use if he had a alibi, like having lunch in New York!!!


Why should anyone take 'Millen' as a serious suggestion?

Im not suggesting Hutchinson saw anyone in reality Jon, that's your bag...or that Millen was in England, just that Hutch may have created a story that attempts to finger someone. Maybe that's why he became discredited, officers familiar with Millen like Anderson and Abberline might have seen the similarities with the description but discovered that Millen was out of town.

Not as bizarre a suggestion as some of the comments made about it.

And yes...he had a gold watch and a horse and/or horseshoe gold pin.

As to why someone would finger Millen, maybe some people were tired of the Irish Self rule groups blowing up innocent people...just a thought.



Cheers

[Batman]

There is a gap in the narrative here with what ever happened to Abberline?

All I can think about right now is that he believed Hutchinson and that was a mistake.

However by focusing on a Jewish suspect they [all the lead investigators] maybe came face to face to JtR during the post-MJK door-to-door searches of Jewish blocks. It seems Swanson got into this idea about Kozminski fitting Bond's profile but I doubt that Kozminski fitted Abberline's description. So while Abberline chased a ghost, Swanson had a lead.

Since Hutchinson by far gave the best description of JtR one can only assume that Swanson rejected Abberline's suspect because of Hutchinson. He demonstrates this by using another witness, Schwartz (the Met's witness), to ID kozminski. He doesn't seem to have used Hutchinson so something went down there.

Since the murders had come to a close, the investigation team whittled down to the heads of the Met with the lead investigators taking up other posts and jobs before retirement.

JtR was never caught. Yet it seems the coincidence of the murders stopping and whatever they were doing could be because they found their man... or not.

I know Abberline went off to work for a private detective firm but I really do wonder if he wasn't actively involved in the case for up to a year or more after it? Or was he simply tasked with taking other more important cases?

[Wickerman]

There is a gap in the narrative here with what ever happened to Abberline?

All I can think about right now is that he believed Hutchinson and that was a mistake.

In a manner of speaking yes. Although I would say it was his belief in Hutchinson that led him to draw the wrong conclusions.
He believed Hutchinson's story and consequently believed the man Hutchinson saw was the killer.

It seems Swanson got into this idea about Kozminski fitting Bond's profile but I doubt that Kozminski fitted Abberline's description. So while Abberline chased a ghost, Swanson had a lead.

Hmm, we can always dovetail any suspect into a theory, which is what I think you are doing with Kozminski. That said, Kozminski's family were tailors, so Koz. may well have had access to threads similar to those worn by Astrachan, so your 'doubt' above may not be warranted.
Hutchinson described a man about 34-35 yrs old, as Kozminski was only 23, that, is a problem.

I think it more likely that Swanson was informed by Anderson that Bond had estimated a time of death between 1:00-2:00 am, thereby eliminating Hutchinson's candidate.
However, because it was only an estimate, and quite possibly subject to a few caveats, it was deemed prudent to keep both Hutchinson's suspect AND Cox's suspect (Blotchy) as prime candidates for the time being.

Which is I think born out by a few paragraphs published in the press.

He demonstrates this by using another witness, Schwartz (the Met's witness), to ID kozminski. He doesn't seem to have used Hutchinson so something went down there.

We do not know when the Kozminski ID occurred (though 1890/1 seem likely). We don't even know if the witness was Schwartz, but not using Hutchinson can be readily explained by the fact Abberline finally caught Joseph Isaacs in early December and realized this was the man seen by Hutchinson, and he was not the killer.
Which may have left Abberline musing whether Blotchy had been the real killer, or someone else entirely that they had overlooked.

[Abby Normal]

Interesting Abby I wonder what photos are available of the members. I wonder if perhaps one of Lusks fellow members had a connection to the London hospital like I read me lusk had. Or anyone who lives or work near whitehall I think might be of particular interest. If the ripper was a member of the vigilance committee he might stand out easily in hindsight by his connections to certain addresses

Hi rocky
FYI. I was just pointing out similarities in blotchy and fiddymont man, not making any connection with any groups, be it vigilance or Fenians or some such "theory".

I am interested in the FACT that 3 of the more credible sightings -cox, Lawende(and by fiat the peaked cap man that ties it back to the stride sightings), and fiddymont, all pretty much describe the same suspect. A stout man with reddish hair, relatively shabby dressed pub frequenting local average Joe.
In other words, our probable serial killer.

[martin wilson]

Hi Abby

Also 'Sandy Beard' seen in Heath street on September the 10th (Echo 14th September 1888)

All the best.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Also 'Sandy Beard' seen in Heath street on September the 10th (Echo 14th September 1888)

All the best.

Thanks martin
Im not aware of mr. Sandy beard. Can you elaborate?

[martin wilson]

Hi Abby

On CB under Witnesses Timothy Donovan, first press report. Short man with a cap and sandy beard.

All the best.