A stout JtR?

[RockySullivan]

re the sound quality no one anywhere says the cry came from MJK's room, or from the courtyard or from the street so we have no idea, addtionally if the cry was what woke her from her sleep she probably had no idea where it came from or who it was.

Considering she didn't say "I heard the cry and it was" [or wasn't if you prefer] MJK I can only presume she did not recognise the voice.

Prater : Between 3.30 and 4.00am, she was awoken by her kitten 'Diddles' walking across her neck and at that moment heard screams of murder, about two or three times, in a female voice. She did not take much notice as such cries were frequent.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Elizabeth_Prater.html

Certainly sounds like someone screaming bloody murder. do you think the screams came from outside gut? Sarah Lewis also heard one "murder". Since Barnett worked at spitalfields market, would he have known Richardson>?

Could Kelly screamn murder explain the ripper's excessive violence..perhaps her screams angered him quite a bit. I've always read of a witness hearing Kelly say "Oh Murder!" as in "Oh shite!" but Prater's account on casebook sounds nothing like that it. It says screams of murder multiple times, and sounds like Kelly's being attacked by the ripper. Where does the oh murder theory come from?

The page also says she claimed to hear kelly singing:
In 1891, Mrs Prater was recorded as living back with her husband at 8 Blossom Street[4], however it appears to have been a short-lived reconciliation. Kathleen Blake Watkins ('Kit'), a journalist from the Toronto Mail, visited Miller's Court in February 1892 and Prater was back living there, albeit in a different room. Whilst talking to Watkins, she mentioned how she had heard Mary Kelly "crooning to herself through the night", a fact noticeably absent from the statements she made back in 1888. 'Lottie', the woman living in Kelly's old room at that time had been living at the other end of the court in 1888 and also claimed to have heard the singing

So that shows she was capable of recognizing Kelly's voice and could tell when singing was coming from there. I wonder if Prater felt a certain amount of guilt for not helping Kelly and dosing back to sleep. Maybe she was scared?

[GUT]

Prater : Between 3.30 and 4.00am, she was awoken by her kitten 'Diddles' walking across her neck and at that moment heard screams of murder, about two or three times, in a female voice. She did not take much notice as such cries were frequent.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Elizabeth_Prater.html

So they were frequent, what makes this one so special?

Certainly sounds like someone screaming bloody murder.

So why didn't all the other frequent screams equal someone being murdered?

do you think the screams came from outside gut?

No idea but it is at least as likely as the chance they came from ONE room.

Sarah Lewis also heard one "murder". Since Barnett worked at spitalfields market, would he have known Richardson>?

Do you have any idea how bid those markets were?

Short answer they may have known one another, but a fair chance that they didn't either, especially bearing in mind that Joe hadn't been there too long.

[RockySullivan]

So they were frequent, what makes this one so special?

So why didn't all the other frequent screams equal someone being murdered?

Obviously because this scream of murder coincided with a woman being butchered like a ham. Why didnt the other frequent screams equal murder? You know why...because the ripper wasn't in the building

[RockySullivan]

G'day Rocky

It seems that at one stage or another they all may have.

But I'm not persuaded that:

a. They were all there at once

b. Even if they were that they knew each other.

Thanks Gut, Everyone can't know everyone else now can they. Or can they? They all know Mary Kelly...

[GUT]

Obviously because this scream of murder coincided with a woman being butchered like a ham. Why didnt the other frequent screams equal murder? You know why...because the ripper wasn't in the building

And did they coincide this time?

Depends on which ToD you accept doesn't it?

[Rosella]

Periods of unemployment and trade depression in the 19th century meant that males in very poor districts tried their hand at many trades, labouring on a building site, labouring in the docks, unskilled work in small workshops, portering in the local markets like Billingsgate and Spitalfields, switching backwards and forwards with seasons and opportunities.
Because some men who knew Kelly also worked at local markets doesn't mean anything sinister at all.

[RockySullivan]

Periods of unemployment and trade depression in the 19th century meant that males in very poor districts tried their hand at many trades, labouring on a building site, labouring in the docks, unskilled work in small workshops, portering in the local markets like Billingsgate and Spitalfields, switching backwards and forwards with seasons and opportunities.
Because some men who knew Kelly also worked at local markets doesn't mean anything sinister at all.

I agree but voyeur hutch potentially potentially living w Fleming or barnetts brother could imply something sinister since he was stalking outside Kelly's window

[Rosella]

Hutch was hardly 'right under Kelly's window'. (It's a pity he wasn't. He could have saved a life.) He waited by a lamp at Crossingham's lodging house opposite the Millers Court archway. The Victoria Home housed dozens of local men every night. Quite a few of them probably knew each other.

[GUT]

I agree but voyeur hutch potentially potentially living w Fleming or barnetts brother could imply something sinister since he was stalking outside Kelly's window

Stalking??????????

and note that word "Potentially" which even if accepted could mean that a lot of men lived in the same doss house.

And I won't even go to the "outside Kelly's window", but I think just said to someone on another thread "let's not let the facts get in the way".

[Batman]

There is no reason to accept Hutchinson is there. He isn't even a witness used to identify suspects and he claims details in the extreme. Like hundreds of other people he is just one more fame seeker.

Nothing he said isn't in news accounts before waiting days to report himself. He saw nothing that contributes to what other witnesses saw and omits them.

His story is a fabrication. Mary walks straight passed him in his account without saying hello. He can hear their conversation from across the road.

There is one and only one man who saw Mary that evening. Blotchy.

[Ben]

Hi GUT,

I'm not sure why you take such exception to Rocky's use of the word "stalking". Stalking means to pursue stealthily, and synonyms include "follow", "pursue", "tail" and "shadow", all of which are perfectly consistent with what Hutchinson himself admitted to doing.

You and Rosella have also raised objection to Rocky's observation that Hutchinson was "outside Kelly's window", when in fact he was merely referencing contemporary evidence; Hutchinson's press interview, which read in part:

"I went up the court, and stayed there a couple of minutes, but did not see any light in the house, or hear any noise."

The implications of this evidence (honest, dishonest, suspicious) are open to debate, but we shouldn't deny the existence of the evidence itself just because we're worried that it might allow for an interpretation that could be be viewed as incriminating.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Just to nit-pick a little on the subject of Keyler/Gallagher, but Sarah Lewis didn't just "pronounce" the name of her 9th November roomies, she read and signed a written statement to the effect that "Keyler" was the correct spelling. Even if Lewis had some inexplicable trouble pronouncing her plosive (g) sounds (Gallagher), she would surely have noticed something very wrong about the name written down on the statement if it was something like Gallegher or Kellegher.

[Batman]

If Blotchy entered at 11:45am why not kill MJK there and then?

Here is a good answer I think.

Kelly is drunk. Cox says her words are slurred. That alone is enough to tell me it is highly unlikely MJK went out ever again in that state especially given she was up all day. Kelly eats fish and potatoes to sober up.

Cox goes out at 12:00am. She hears Kelly sing. So there is movement in the court. JtR won't kill. JtR got Kelly to sing with the objective of judging how long it will take for someone to arrive and tell her to stop making noise. No one does. JtR judges that noise won't be a big issue. He tests it for an hour.

1am, Cox comes back. More movement in the court. JtR pauses on his plans to kill. Cox goes out again. More movement in the court.

3am Cox returns. More movement in the court.

I think somewhere around 1:30am Blotchy went out to judge how safe things really where.

As a punter he might have just made the excuse of going to get something and brb, using the door trick. So I might revise my interpretation and instead of saying MJK asked him to leave, simply let him leave or was too out of it in bed asleep to know the difference. JtR went in and out to test the waters.

[Abby Normal]

One could just say Cox was the only one who saw anything except that Lewis has good reason for going to Miller's court. So I don't think factoring her out would be logical. I have no problem letting Hutchinson and Kennedy go. Cox and Lewis are the only viable witnesses to my thinking... plus Blotchy himself, who was never found and never came forward.

Imagine being the last punter seen alive with MJK before she was murdered? That's as bad luck as bad luck could get for someone back then. I suppose even if he was innocent coming forward would have been like preparing the noose for himself.

So I must admit, Blotchy not coming forward, doesn't make him JtR.

Many of us have good reason to suspect Blotchy.

If JtR didn't leave and go back in, then it's not blotchy.

In order for this to work with Lewis, he must leave and go back. No two ways about it.

I agree though that the view he would abort a kill if he has a woman cornered who meets his victimology is at odds with this.

However we have reason to believe JtR does abort. For example, Stride. Not only do we have reason to believe he can abort, but that his wrath following aborting can only been deemed overkill, as was the case minutes later with Eddowes.

Therefore looking at MJK from a forensic point of view, one could say what we are seeing is the same thing. Having to abort an attack and then going back and completing the murder.

I think JtR wouldn't kill within stones throw of someone seeing him unless he had a clear exit without crowds going after him. In the case of Stride I believe he had already blitzed her before being seen by Schwartz.

I see similiaries between this man and JtR. Having said, Blotchy face and Schwartz's man, are as common looking as you can get and is probably a major contributing factor as to why JtR got away.

Cox had seen him. He wouldn't be particularly happy with the proximity of it either and seen going into a room with MJK. That's as close a call as with Schwartz in many ways.

So I propose to keep Lewis in perspective, that he left at some point, knowing he could get back in. He checked things out. It didn't check out well for him. Lewis is about the place. Plus Cox may have had a second opportunity to see him.

If Blotchy went out, then Lewis and Cox would have been potential victims. Maybe he decided the court would make a good location for him (which obviously JtR was right about because he was never caught) after MJK brought him there and he had made his mind up he would do something there, he just didn't know where and when.

If Blotchy kept a vigil it may also have been because he didn't want to let her out of his sight and if she left he would have blitzed her there and then.

Hutchinson and Kennedy would have us believe Miller's court had all sorts of activity that night. Without them, there is Cox going in and out twice and Lewis arriving. That's hardly anybody (which is odd given the amount of people once living there and considered one of the worst streets in London, but maybe not at that hour). Cox and Lewis seemed to think they were safe going out and about on their own.

Hi Batman
there is no reason for blotchy to leave marys place once he is safely inside. More than likely if he waited till four("oh murder") to kill her, its because he was waiting for things to settle down in and around the court. Getting into her private residence was half the battle and he only risked losing it all by leaving and then trying to get in again. and this would also open him up to more witness sightings.

being seen by cox is more along the lines of the ripper being seen by witnesses like long and lawende-not Schwartz who actually witnessed an attack.
Blotchy had nothing to fear from the Cox sighting.

Lewis saw hutch outside, who in all likelihood was waiting for Blotchy to leave.

As far as I know we are the only two Blotchyites-so lets not argue. ; )

[Batman]

Lewis saw hutch outside, who in all likelihood was waiting for Blotchy to leave.

If I understand you correctly, Hutchinson was there, but nothing of what he said to the police was true?

Have you read this? -> http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...roo-hutch.html