A stout JtR?

[Wickerman]

The other person she was with was not Lewis, it was Mrs. Kennedy's "sister". East London Advertiser called them the "Kennedy sisters".

Just briefly.
Not providing the true identity of your companion to a reporter is not unusual.
Name dropping can get a person in trouble, but regardless, "sister" does not always mean the biological kind.
It might not be in their best interests to admit to a reporter that they were both working the streets that night, so not providing a true identity is only to be expected.

The important points are that Kennedy was with a female companion, that two women familiar with the same address, and therefore will know each other, are actually spending time together, and are telling the same story.
Nothing unusual in that.

[GUT]

Just briefly.
Not providing the true identity of your companion to a reporter is not unusual.
Name dropping can get a person in trouble, but regardless, "sister" does not always mean the biological kind.
It might not be in their best interests to admit to a reporter that they were both working the streets that night, so not providing a true identity is only to be expected.

The important points are that Kennedy was with a female companion, that two women familiar with the same address, and therefore will know each other, are actually spending time together, and are telling the same story.
Nothing unusual in that.

I may have missed something here, but how do we know that Mrs Kennedy's Sister wasn't Mrs Lewis?

[Batman]

The papers talked about the Kennedy Sisters (See A-Z). There is no mention by Lewis that she was with her sister. After the inquest the papers didn't correct anything. The Star had already by this stage doubted Kennedy because it sounded like Lewis. Lewis's account has details ommitted by Kennedy. Hence Kennedy copied Lewis. Lewis has a reason for going to Miller's court. Kenendy was claiming to go to a pub. Lewis never saw Kennedy. No one claims to have seen Lewis, not even Hutchinson. The A-Z covers this quite well.

However Lewis is the only one to have a legit reason for being there, beside Cox. Hutchinson's story has only the factor that Lewis saw someone by Miller's Court entrance to support it, yet her description of someone else and Hutchinson's own testimony seem to indicate that he was just another fame seeker of which there was plenty.

My question for now is... is this correct? -> http://www.casebook.org/victims/mary...lewis.html#ani I think it is somewhat correct but because it lacks times the whole Hutchinson story/Lewis seeing him part might look a little more smoothly than it should be.

[Batman]

My timeline wasn't right.

Here is a better version. Hutchinson wasn't even there. He is just an attention seeker like Kennedy. Lewis didn't see Hutchison but the man Cox saw. How is this possible?

11:45am - Blotchy goes inside. Seen by Cox. MJK never leaves her room again. Blotchy doesn't kill because he has been identified by Cox.

2:00am (approx) - Mary wouldn't let a punter stay the night. She isn't a B&B. She asks him to leave while half-asleep in bed. He doesn't take the risk. He leaves knowing he can get back in anytime with the window trick he has just seen. He regrets leaving so hangs around. Things are quiet enough maybe to go back in... wait... what's this...

2:30am - Lewis sees stout man outside of Miller's court, standing against the lodging-house. (Time noted by the Christ Church Spitalfields Clock.). He watches her go in. He is thinking about calling it quits. He will walk around to see if he can find anyone else.

3:00am - Cox returns to her room. No mention of any man. Maybe Blotchy saw her coming and knew she would recognize him again. He goes for another walkabout.

3:30 - Blotchy comes back. Maybe even with additions to his kill kit.

3:30-3:45 - He blitzes Mary's Room after carefully breaking in. Grabs clothes off the table and throws them onto the small glowing coals sending the room into complete darkness. Attacks. She defends herself. Gets defensive wounds. Prater and Lewis hear "Oh, murder!" She dies.

Blotchy waits for a few minutes by the door with his knife until he is satisified there is no commotion outside. Finished the mutilations in under 30 minutes. Leaves. He may even have been all those footsteps going out (and maybe back in) to make sure the coast was truly clear (and it obviously was).


The reason why I like this is because my brain doesn't have to do all this brainmash with Hutchinson/Kennedy, people coming and going, like it was Christmas at the local Mall or something.

[Abby Normal]

My timeline wasn't right.

Here is a better version. Hutchinson wasn't even there. He is just an attention seeker like Kennedy. Lewis didn't see Hutchison but the man Cox saw. How is this possible?

11:45am - Blotchy goes inside. Seen by Cox. MJK never leaves her room again. Blotchy doesn't kill because he has been identified by Cox.

2:00am (approx) - Mary wouldn't let a punter stay the night. She isn't a B&B. She asks him to leave while half-asleep in bed. He doesn't take the risk. He leaves knowing he can get back in anytime with the window trick he has just seen. He regrets leaving so hangs around. Things are quiet enough maybe to go back in... wait... what's this...

2:30am - Lewis sees stout man outside of Miller's court, standing against the lodging-house. (Time noted by the Christ Church Spitalfields Clock.). He watches her go in. He is thinking about calling it quits. He will walk around to see if he can find anyone else.

3:00am - Cox returns to her room. No mention of any man. Maybe Blotchy saw her coming and knew she would recognize him again. He goes for another walkabout.

3:30 - Blotchy comes back. Maybe even with additions to his kill kit.

3:30-3:45 - He blitzes Mary's Room after carefully breaking in. Grabs clothes off the table and throws them onto the small glowing coals sending the room into complete darkness. Attacks. She defends herself. Gets defensive wounds. Prater and Lewis hear "Oh, murder!" She dies.

Blotchy waits for a few minutes by the door with his knife until he is satisified there is no commotion outside. Finished the mutilations in under 30 minutes. Leaves. He may even have been all those footsteps going out (and maybe back in) to make sure the coast was truly clear (and it obviously was).


The reason why I like this is because my brain doesn't have to do all this brainmash with Hutchinson/Kennedy, people coming and going, like it was Christmas at the local Mall or something.

Hi Batman
interesting theory and of course its possible. But I just don't see the ripper leaving once he is alone with her.
Blotchy is still my favorite suspect, though,with hutch my close second.

In my mind, the most likely scenario is that Blotchy kills her and skidaddles and hutch was looking for a place to crash, either waiting outside for blotchy to leave, or if blotchy has already left perhaps (not knowing she is dead) waiting for her return.

[Abby Normal]

also, if it was hutch as her killer, he was waiting for blotchy to leave-which he eventually did.

I find it interesting that waiting man (hutch) was described as not tall but stout-very similar to the other descriptions of the ripper.

[Batman]

Hi Batman
interesting theory and of course its possible. But I just don't see the ripper leaving once he is alone with her.

One could just say Cox was the only one who saw anything except that Lewis has good reason for going to Miller's court. So I don't think factoring her out would be logical. I have no problem letting Hutchinson and Kennedy go. Cox and Lewis are the only viable witnesses to my thinking... plus Blotchy himself, who was never found and never came forward.

Imagine being the last punter seen alive with MJK before she was murdered? That's as bad luck as bad luck could get for someone back then. I suppose even if he was innocent coming forward would have been like preparing the noose for himself.

So I must admit, Blotchy not coming forward, doesn't make him JtR.

Many of us have good reason to suspect Blotchy.

If JtR didn't leave and go back in, then it's not blotchy.

In order for this to work with Lewis, he must leave and go back. No two ways about it.

I agree though that the view he would abort a kill if he has a woman cornered who meets his victimology is at odds with this.

However we have reason to believe JtR does abort. For example, Stride. Not only do we have reason to believe he can abort, but that his wrath following aborting can only been deemed overkill, as was the case minutes later with Eddowes.

Therefore looking at MJK from a forensic point of view, one could say what we are seeing is the same thing. Having to abort an attack and then going back and completing the murder.

I think JtR wouldn't kill within stones throw of someone seeing him unless he had a clear exit without crowds going after him. In the case of Stride I believe he had already blitzed her before being seen by Schwartz.

I see similiaries between this man and JtR. Having said, Blotchy face and Schwartz's man, are as common looking as you can get and is probably a major contributing factor as to why JtR got away.

Cox had seen him. He wouldn't be particularly happy with the proximity of it either and seen going into a room with MJK. That's as close a call as with Schwartz in many ways.

So I propose to keep Lewis in perspective, that he left at some point, knowing he could get back in. He checked things out. It didn't check out well for him. Lewis is about the place. Plus Cox may have had a second opportunity to see him.

If Blotchy went out, then Lewis and Cox would have been potential victims. Maybe he decided the court would make a good location for him (which obviously JtR was right about because he was never caught) after MJK brought him there and he had made his mind up he would do something there, he just didn't know where and when.

If Blotchy kept a vigil it may also have been because he didn't want to let her out of his sight and if she left he would have blitzed her there and then.

Hutchinson and Kennedy would have us believe Miller's court had all sorts of activity that night. Without them, there is Cox going in and out twice and Lewis arriving. That's hardly anybody (which is odd given the amount of people once living there and considered one of the worst streets in London, but maybe not at that hour). Cox and Lewis seemed to think they were safe going out and about on their own.

[Michael W Richards]

One very important thing must be factored when people try to provide a timeline for Marys murder....the call at 3:45 was almost surely from Mary, no-one from the courtyard claimed to have made the call and no-one else came forward to say it was them calling out "oh-murder", and the only person unable to claim that voice is the dead person.

There was no sound coming from Marys room after that call. And we have 2 witnesses awake listening for follow up cries, one witness heard the call "as if from the court", and one heard it "as if at the front door". Since the second witness was actually in the courtyard at the time, and the first in the house at 26 above Mary....there is every reason to suspect the call was Mary's, likely from her open door, based on the volumes the statements contain.

Which means....the attack did not start with "oh-murder", Mary was alive at that time, and she answered her door when she made the exclamation...the knock was what woke diddles as well.

So the prelude to the murder indicates...known man to Mary, murder after 3:45 when people fell asleep again, and Mary in bed on her right side, facing the wall, when attacked.

Anyone who doesn't see a personal relationship between killer and victim should look again.

Cheers

[Batman]

Which means....the attack did not start with "oh-murder", Mary was alive at that time, and she answered her door when she made the exclamation...the knock was what woke diddles as well.

So the prelude to the murder indicates...known man to Mary, murder after 3:45 when people fell asleep again, and Mary in bed on her right side, facing the wall, when attacked.

She says oh murder answering the door and gets back into bed?

If they knew her well they didn't have to knock. The broken window trick works for punters like Blotchy just as good.

[RockySullivan]

She says oh murder answering the door and gets back into bed?

If they knew her well they didn't have to knock. The broken window trick works for punters like Blotchy just as good.

That's why I think oh murder was loud probably a scream. If it was just conversation that implies the neighbor can hear anything they say in the room. If that's the case she would've heard what was said between Mary and the ripper. It makes more sense if oh murder was a loud cry for help.

[Batman]

That's why I think oh murder was loud probably a scream. If it was just conversation that implies the neighbor can hear anything they say in the room. If that's the case she would've heard what was said between Mary and the ripper. It makes more sense if oh murder was a loud cry for help.

I agree. So I think my original narrative includes that Mary was attacked at that time. Since the forensic evidence was that she was in bed either she let the person in and got into bed to sleep or the attacker opened the door via the window trick and attacked her while she was in bed.

The window trick completely obliterates the need for Mary to know the person well who killed her. All the killer needed to know was how to get in and any punter could have learned it from just going with her.

Blotchy went in at 11:45. Is 2hrs and 15min a long time in there because Hutchinson didn't say anyone went out? He didn't see Lewis go in either. Lewis saw no one leave. Neither did Cox.

Also given Mary was drunk and singing it is hardly likely she went anywhere.

Nah, Blotchy has to be prime suspect. The last person seen going into Mary's room with her drunk by a credable witness before she died.

[GUT]

That's why I think oh murder was loud probably a scream. If it was just conversation that implies the neighbor can hear anything they say in the room. If that's the case she would've heard what was said between Mary and the ripper. It makes more sense if oh murder was a loud cry for help.

Or that it didn't come from the room, what if it was say someone in the courtyard or in the street.

[RockySullivan]

Or that it didn't come from the room, what if it was say someone in the courtyard or in the street.

I imagine the sound would be quite different if it came from outside, different sound qualities. Wouldn't she recognize Kelly's voice?

[GUT]

I imagine the sound would be quite different if it came from outside, different sound qualities. Wouldn't she recognize Kelly's voice?

re the sound quality no one anywhere says the cry came from MJK's room, or from the courtyard or from the street so we have no idea, addtionally if the cry was what woke her from her sleep she probably had no idea where it came from or who it was.

Considering she didn't say "I heard the cry and it was" [or wasn't if you prefer] MJK I can only presume she did not recognise the voice.

[Wickerman]

I may have missed something here, but how do we know that Mrs Kennedy's Sister wasn't Mrs Lewis?

Sarah Lewis had an older sister, Emily.

However, the Evening News, 10th Nov. provides this:

"Immediately opposite the house in which Mary Jane Kelly was murdered is a tenement occupied by an Irishman, named Gallagher, and his family. On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour."

Sarah Lewis, a friend of this family pronounced the name Keiler/Keyler. The Evening News reporter may have mis-spelled the family name, we see mistakes like that frequently in this case. For instance, the family may have been named Kellegher, but Keiler/Keyler is not far removed.
Its not like we are talking about Smith and Posselthwaite, at least Gallagher/Kellegher is phonetically close to Keiler/Keyler.
They are not worlds apart.

That said, if Mrs Kennedy was Gallagher's daughter, it is not likely she was also Lewis's sister.
We don't even know if "Kennedy" was her real name.
She may not have truly been married either, Sarah Lewis claimed to have a husband, but she was not married to him at the time, they were just living together.
If you recall Mrs Long gave a false name to the press when she gave them a statement, she called herself Durrell. So if Kennedy was a false name, then maybe this woman was the Daughter-in-law of Mrs Gallagher?
It needs research.

Sadly, Chris Scott (whom we have to thank for discovering the real Sarah Lewis) was about to search for this "Mrs Kennedy" just before he passed away.