What did Cadosch hear ?

[moonbegger]

The thing about Mrs Long, which has been pointed out many times, if Cadosche heard any woman say anything from the yard in #29 at around 5:15-5:20, then Mrs Long is obviously incorrect about seeing Annie in the street around 5:30. The woman would have to have been Annie if she is found before 6am. Which she was.

From Mrs Long; "On Saturday, Sept. 8, about half past five o'clock in the morning, I was passing down Hanbury-street, from home, on my way to Spitalfields Market. I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street. I passed 29, Hanbury-street."

That quote puts Mrs Longs sighting sometime between 5:15 and 5:30, when Cadosch heard what he heard during that same time. She cant be in both places.

Cheers

Hello Michael , Surly you mean Long's sighting between 5.31 to 5.35 ? which would put her outside on the street 20 mins after Cadosch hears the woman in the yard .

moonbegger .

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael , Surly you mean Long's sighting between 5.31 to 5.35 ? which would put her outside on the street 20 mins after Cadosch hears the woman in the yard .

moonbegger .

Yes, that was what I was supposed to have written....thank you, ... but the point I was trying to emphasise is that Cadosch's ear witness account around 5:15-:20, for me, virtually solidifies the idea that Annie Chapman was the woman he heard, and that her attack was commencing.

I cannot envisage another couple being in that yard between Richardson and Cadosches times, in part, due to the fact that Annie must have been killed by 5:30 at the latest,....there needs to be some elapsed time between her disembowelment and her discovery...how else could the TOD estimates be so early? Her body must have cooled enough to make that difficult to determine for them.

Cheers

[moonbegger]

Allow me to clear things up a little

Annie is brown bread (dead) in the back yard . Cadosch hears the couple that is seen 15 minute later by Long as they debate whether or not to steal what little she has .. Either " No" or " Who's gonna know " .
Either way her pockets are riffled and her rings are stolen .. The slump against the fence can possibly be attributed to whoever robbed her crouching down or getting up between Annie and the fence .

The couple return back out to Hanbury street , only to be seen by Long who is now passing .

moonbegger .

[Rosella]

Callous pair! Took a bit of a risk, didn't they?

[Bridewell]

Allow me to clear things up a little

Annie is brown bread (dead) in the back yard . Cadosch hears the couple that is seen 15 minute later by Long as they debate whether or not to steal what little she has .. Either " No" or " Who's gonna know " .
Either way her pockets are riffled and her rings are stolen .. The slump against the fence can possibly be attributed to whoever robbed her crouching down or getting up between Annie and the fence .

The couple return back out to Hanbury street , only to be seen by Long who is now passing .

moonbegger .

I'm not sure that your post clears anything up - but then I'm not sure that it is seriously meant either?

The best fit is that Mrs Long either mistook the quarter hour for the half hour or that the woman seen wasn't Chapman.

[moonbegger]

The best fit is that Mrs Long either mistook the quarter hour for the half hour or that the woman seen wasn't Chapman.

G'day Bridewell

And if it wasn't Chapman , it was someone else, loitering outside #29 at around the same time , or very soon after Cadosch hears a woman mutter "No" or "Know" followed by some activity at the fence ..

Putting this together with the fact that Chapman's pockets had been riffled and her rings stolen , is it really such a far conclusion to reach ?

Apparently Meecher's or mucher's were fairly common place at the time.

moonbegger .

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Colin.

"The best fit is that Mrs Long either mistook the quarter hour for the half hour or that the woman seen wasn't Chapman."

Quite. If it WERE Chapman--as I believe--and the sighting were a minute or two past the quarter, then, given the time to walk through the passage, it would make about 5.20, dovetailing neatly with Cadosch and his first hearing the words.

Cheers.
LC

[Karl]

But we still have around six minutes between "No" and the fall against the fence !! The same Killer that took under ten minutes to completely destroy Eddows in Mitre Sq , from start to finish , spends six minutes just to strangle poor ole Annie and lay her down ?

Why not? Strangulation takes a lot longer than most people think. It takes at least 1-2 minutes just to cause unconsciousness (unless it is a blood choke, in which case it takes seconds, but was very obviously not the case here), and a further 2-6 minutes maintaining the choke hold (and with the body spasming) to cause death. It's nothing like in the movies, where you can kill a person with a simple choke hold in a few seconds. Strangling a person takes determination and patience.

In Chapman's case, the choke hold was obviously not maintained long enough to cause death, as blood spurted on the fence when her throat was slit. Also, just as Cadosch had heard noises on the other side of the fence, so might the killer. The killer might well have waited until he heard the person on the other side of the fence leave before getting to work, starting the attack as Cadosch went inside. Strangling Chapman for 2-4 minutes, letting her slump down to the grown at the same time as Cadosch went outside again.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

This has been bugging me...

"SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:25am Sun rose"

This apparently, is quoted from the 1888 almanach.

But there was no DST in 1888, and the sun rose at 5:34 in August 2015, London DST, according to the website "time and dates".

Which means that the sun rose at 4:25 on August 8th, 1888?

So, let's assume that it was 6:30ish DST when this whole thing happened, the sun is already up, but in the slums, maybe it's still pretty dark.

Am I missing something?

[Wickerman]

Why not? Strangulation takes a lot longer than most people think. It takes at least 1-2 minutes just to cause unconsciousness (unless it is a blood choke, in which case it takes seconds, but was very obviously not the case here), and a further 2-6 minutes maintaining the choke hold (and with the body spasming) to cause death. It's nothing like in the movies, where you can kill a person with a simple choke hold in a few seconds. Strangling a person takes determination and patience.

In Chapman's case, the choke hold was obviously not maintained long enough to cause death, as blood spurted on the fence when her throat was slit. Also, just as Cadosch had heard noises on the other side of the fence, so might the killer. The killer might well have waited until he heard the person on the other side of the fence leave before getting to work, starting the attack as Cadosch went inside. Strangling Chapman for 2-4 minutes, letting her slump down to the grown at the same time as Cadosch went outside again.

I think you'll find that in all the cases the victims died from loss of blood, they were all alive when he applied the knife. Alive but naturally, we should hope, unconscious.

The strangling, or choking, was applied long enough for them to loose consciousness, that is all.

[Rosella]

But, as has been discussed before, we don't know in what tone the 'No' was uttered. It may have been a very frightened 'No!' as Annie saw something in his eyes as he leaned towards her. Or it could have been 'No' in the course of a normal conversation.

Jack could have been asking Annie if she had change for sixpence, for all we know! It's not known whether the 'No' was the last word Annie uttered. It's a pity Cadosch didn't stay in the yard because he might have heard something useful. Nor do we really know how many minutes Cadosch went inside for. Some people are terrible at estimating time!

[Michael W Richards]

But, as has been discussed before, we don't know in what tone the 'No' was uttered. It may have been a very frightened 'No!' as Annie saw something in his eyes as he leaned towards her. Or it could have been 'No' in the course of a normal conversation.

Jack could have been asking Annie if she had change for sixpence, for all we know! It's not known whether the 'No' was the last word Annie uttered. It's a pity Cadosch didn't stay in the yard because he might have heard something useful. Nor do we really know how many minutes Cadosch went inside for. Some people are terrible at estimating time!

I think that the "no" isn't a smoking gun as you say, but the "no" plus the thud against the fence may well be. Based on the time that it was heard its almost incomprehensible that we have someone coming in with Annie after that time.....the examination of Annie led to a conclusion that the killer needed to spend sometime performing those mutilations and excisions, and that she was probably killed before Cadosche entered the yard.

Since we have an opened body on a cool morning, that TOD estimate may have been off...hell, even Cadosche may have been off by a few minutes, but its almost a certainty that Cadosche heard Annie and her killer. At what stage the murder was at seems pretty clear too..."no", then thud.

All Cadosche really does is make it clear that Mrs Long didn't see Annie at all.

[Damaso Marte]

I continue to believe that either Long or Cadosch being mistaken about the time by a few minutes is a simpler explanation than having to account for a second couple.