What did Cadosch hear ?

[moonbegger]

Greetings all ,

I am under the impression that most on these boards assume Cadosch unknowingly heard Chapman's last moments alive in the back yard of #29 . Although it is not a theory I subscribe to , I am curious to figure out what was going on in the six minutes between the "No" and the fall against the fence . According to the Coroner ..

The wretch must have then seized the deceased, perhaps with Judas-like approaches. He seized her by the chin. He pressed her throat, and while thus preventing the slightest cry, he at the same time produced insensibility and suffocation. There is no evidence of any struggle.

But according to Cadosch the kerfuffle lasted between 5 or 6 minutes !

I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards.

Allowing for at least two minutes in the out house .. then

While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29. It seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly.

But we still have around six minutes between "No" and the fall against the fence !! The same Killer that took under ten minutes to completely destroy Eddows in Mitre Sq , from start to finish , spends six minutes just to strangle poor ole Annie and lay her down ?

So I fail to see how that fall against the fence can be attributed to Annie ..
The Killer maybe .. or a robber , but surely not Annie .

moonbegger

[GUT]

Now of course he may have heard two different people/couples.

Could he have heard Chapman telling a potential client that she wasn't prepared to provide the service he sought, said client shortly after departs the scene, then her killer strikes?

[Qlder]

If, like me, you consider that Jack may have left 29 Hanbury Street by hopping a couple of fences rather than returning through the soon to be stirring house, the sound heard by Cadosch might well have been Jack hurriedly dropping back to the 29 side of the fence after commencing his vault into Cadosch's yard and being surprised by his reappearance. In this scenario, Annie has been killed and mutilated just about as quickly as the murder in Mitre Square. After Cadosch is out of the way, Jack goes over the fence, across Cadosch's yard and over the next fence and away...

[Rosella]

How do we know that "No" was the last word of the conversation between Ripper and victim, (if it was Annie and JTR in the back yard of no. 29?) It was the last word Cadosch heard as he was going indoors, but there could have been another couple of minutes of conversation for all we know!

It's always been presumed that the "No" was an exclamation of alarm on Annie's part as she saw something in her killer's eyes or felt his hands getting near her neck, but it needn't have been like that at all.

[lynn cates]

conversation

Hello MB. Interesting question.

"The same Killer that took under ten minutes to completely destroy Eddowes in Mitre Sq , from start to finish, spends six minutes just to strangle poor ole Annie and lay her down?"

A simple modus tollens might disabuse you of this notion.

Besides, why could they not have been engaged in conversation at least part of that time?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

brothel

Hello GUT.

"Could he have heard Chapman telling a potential client that she wasn't prepared to provide the service he sought, said client shortly after departs the scene, then her killer strikes?"

This sounds as though Annie had taken up a position (no pun intended) in the backyard of #29, treating it as her private brothel.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

No

Hello Qlder. And the "No" would be emitted when he looks up and sees Albert emerging from the privy?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Rosella. Spot on.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

Hello GUT.

"Could he have heard Chapman telling a potential client that she wasn't prepared to provide the service he sought, said client shortly after departs the scene, then her killer strikes?"

This sounds as though Annie had taken up a position (no pun intended) in the backyard of #29, treating it as her private brothel.

Cheers.
LC

G'day Lynn

My thought [and that's all it is, if it is even that] is that Jack may have been a peeping Tom [Jack Tom maybe] who struck out at the prostitute when his voyeurism was ruined by the transaction not being completed. Ie the client asked for something she was not willing to provide, this would explain the Post Mortem reports that there was no sign of sexual activity.

The other possibility is that it Wasn't Annie that he heard say "no" but rather someone else who had gone there for the same purpose and after that couple left Chapman and Jack arrived.

But then again sometimes I think my imagination is too good and I can come with with 20 stories to fit any set of facts.

[Defective Detective]

Is it not possible that some poor local woman may have accidentally stumbled upon Annie Chapman's corpse, felt about it in the dark for a moment, said "no!" in reaction to this, then took flight in a panic?

[lynn cates]

thought experiment

Hello GUT. Thanks.

OK, try this. Where would he have been located as he peeped? Moreover, how came he there?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Lux fiat.

Hello DD. No, not possible as it was not dark when she was killed. It was AFTER sun up.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

Hello GUT. Thanks.

OK, try this. Where would he have been located as he peeped?

Cheers.
LC

That bit I'm not sure about.

Moreover, how came he there?

Followed them.

And as I intimated I don't really believe it myself yet.

[Qlder]

Post #7
Hello Qlder. And the "No" would be emitted when he looks up and sees Albert emerging from the privy?
Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.
In reply: No, no, no! Oh, no!

... Albert Cadosch, a young carpenter living at 27 Hanbury Street walks into his back yard probably to use the outhouse. Passing the five foot tall wooden fence which separates his yard from that of number 29, he hears voices quite close. The only word he can make out is a woman saying "No!" He then heard something falling against the fence.

This bit from Casebook's Victim's section on Annie Chapman is somewhat misleading. I was addressing Moonbeggar's proposed six minute interval between hearing a woman's voice say, "No" and the noise of something against the fence. Going to the Casebook Timeline for Annie Chapman gives a better sense of how things unfolded and accords with Moonbeggar's proposition:

SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:20am Cadoche went into the backyard of #27. Upon his return to the house, he heard voices quite close to him. Of which, he could only make out the word "No."
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:25am Sun rose
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 c.5:25am Cadoche re-entered his backyard and heard a fall against the fence. Cadoche returned to the house and prepared to leave for work.

Sure, my scenario is mere speculation, but I think it is within the realms of the possible, given the facts as we know them.

[Qlder]

Hello GUT.
Re Post #9 "... The other possibility is that it Wasn't Annie that he heard say "no" but rather someone else who had gone there for the same purpose and after that couple left Chapman and Jack arrived."
The 5 to 6 minute interval involved makes that a fairly remote possibility, wouldn't you say? Although there is the issue of Mrs Long's evidence that she saw (probably) Annie in the street with a man at 5:30.