"Watchman, old man, I believe somebody is murdered down the street."

[Defective Detective]

Of all the witnesses in the Ripper case, I've always been particularly perturbed by what Patrick Mulshaw related occurring to him in the period immediately surrounding the discovery of the body of Polly Nichols.

Patrick Mulshaw, a night porter in the employ of the Whitechapel District Board of Works, living at 3, Rupert-street, Whitechapel, said on the night of this occurrence he was at the back of the Working Lads' Institute in Winthorpe-street [Winthrop-street]. He went on duty about a quarter to 5 in the afternoon, and remained until about five minutes to 6 the next morning, when he was relieved. He was watching some sewage works. He dozed at times during the night, but was not asleep between 3 and 4 o'clock. He did not see any one about during that period, and did not hear any cries for assistance, or any other noise. The slaughterhouse was about 70 yards away from where he was. Another man then passed by, and said, "Watchman, old man, I believe somebody is murdered down the street." Witness then went to Buck's-row, and saw the body of deceased lying on the ground. Three or four policemen and five or six working men were there.


By the CORONER. - If any one had called out for assistance from the spot where the body was he might have heard it. Nothing suspicious occurred during the time he was watching, and he saw no person running away. There was no one about after 11 and 12 o'clock, and the inhabitants of the street appeared to be very orderly persons. He did not often see the police there. During the night he saw two constables, including Constable Neil. He was unable to say what time he saw that officer.

I know it's been mooted before that he may have been told by the murderer himself, though there's some question whether or not the body had already been found when this occurred.

I've always been struck by the eerie similarity between this and one of the Thames torso cases (though I am recalling this from memory - does anyone have the actual information about this?) where a man contacted a newspaper with a story that he'd been told by a policeman that a body had been found, and was then arrested himself when the body was actually discovered without any record of the policeman he claimed he'd talked to being there.

I'd just like to get the feeling of the forum on this, so no poll: do we think that Mulshaw was approached by the murderer of Nichols, and before or after PC Neil and PC Thain arrived on the scene. Do we think perhaps if the Ripper and the Torso murderer were one and the same that he may have been in the habit of alerting bystanders about this crimes?

[Bridewell]

I'm left wondering why the Whitechapel District Board of Works would employ a night watchman to stand guard over a sewage works.

[Wickerman]

Yes, this passing encounter struck me as very similar to one that allegedly took place on the day of the Kelly murder.
Mrs Paumier was at her chestnut stand only two minutes from Millers Court, when she was approached by a stranger..
"...a man, dressed like a gentleman, came to her, and said, "I suppose you have heard about the murder in Dorset-street." She replied that she had, whereupon the man laughed, and said, "I know more about it than you."
Echo, 10 Nov. 1888.

[Defective Detective]

Can anybody recall the torso case I'm referring to? I wish I had that information at hand, but I haven't taken any notes on the torso cases and the event I'm referring to seems absent both from the Casebook dissertation on the case and the other pages I've pulled up about the torso slayings.

As I recall, and I very well may be wrong about it, a chap ran into someone he thought was a copper in the street, who asked him something along the lines of "have you heard about the latest body we've found?". This guy went to a newspaper, and they in turn took the story to the police, who inspected the location he reported to have seen this 'policeman' and found a body - and that no policeman recalled the incident.

I wish to Hell I could remember the exact details of this incident, but it was one of those things I treated as anecdotal when I read it. But if we entertain for the moment that the Ripper was also the Torso Murderer - perhaps 'ripping' when he had not the time or opportunity to take a victim along in whatever mode of transportation the Torso Murderer presumably used - and if we assume that this killer told both Mulshaw and whatever poor man it was I'm remembering from the torso cases about his murders before they were discovered, then that would be a pretty remarkably modus operandi. It would incline me very much towards a certain view of the 'Ripper' as a cat-and-mouser which was popular decades ago but which has fallen out of favor. Combined with the detail from the Kelly murder that Wickerman relates, that would suggest a killer much more in keeping with the old 'Dear Boss'/cockney punter/Jack The Knife view of him as a Grand Guignol player of games.

[RockySullivan]

Can anybody recall the torso case I'm referring to? I wish I had that information at hand, but I haven't taken any notes on the torso cases and the event I'm referring to seems absent both from the Casebook dissertation on the case and the other pages I've pulled up about the torso slayings.

As I recall, and I very well may be wrong about it, a chap ran into someone he thought was a copper in the street, who asked him something along the lines of "have you heard about the latest body we've found?". This guy went to a newspaper, and they in turn took the story to the police, who inspected the location he reported to have seen this 'policeman' and found a body - and that no policeman recalled the incident.

I wish to Hell I could remember the exact details of this incident, but it was one of those things I treated as anecdotal when I read it. But if we entertain for the moment that the Ripper was also the Torso Murderer - perhaps 'ripping' when he had not the time or opportunity to take a victim along in whatever mode of transportation the Torso Murderer presumably used - and if we assume that this killer told both Mulshaw and whatever poor man it was I'm remembering from the torso cases about his murders before they were discovered, then that would be a pretty remarkably modus operandi. It would incline me very much towards a certain view of the 'Ripper' as a cat-and-mouser which was popular decades ago but which has fallen out of favor. Combined with the detail from the Kelly murder that Wickerman relates, that would suggest a killer much more in keeping with the old 'Dear Boss'/cockney punter/Jack The Knife view of him as a Grand Guignol player of games.

I remember the story your talking about the man who went to the station to collect a reward for reporting murder. Wasn't he a journalist? I tjink I read the story in rumbelows book if that's possible

[Tom_Wescott]

It was in regards to the Pinchin Street case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Paddy]

Wasn't it published in an american paper? Or maybe I am thinking of another.

Pat..........

[Wickerman]

... It would incline me very much towards a certain view of the 'Ripper' as a cat-and-mouser which was popular decades ago but which has fallen out of favor. Combined with the detail from the Kelly murder that Wickerman relates, that would suggest a killer much more in keeping with the old 'Dear Boss'/cockney punter/Jack The Knife view of him as a Grand Guignol player of games.

Someone who enjoys partaking in the attention he has created. Someone who revels in toying with other witnesses, posing as "one who knows". Someone who hovers around the crime scene as part of the thrill of the chase.

[RockySullivan]

Was there ever a description of the man that spoke to mulshaw? Could really be something. From another perspective what if there was no man and he was lying. You have someone alone near the crime scene and while I doubt he's the killer you have a similar situation to Lechmere right? Is love to learn more about the man who reported the pinchin torso before it was found, I think it's strange he went to the paper to ask for money and then a body shows up. It's a keen observation how similar these two scenarios are detective

[The Good Michael]

Def Detective,

Go here and read the 2nd paragraph. You'll have what you were looking for, but it isn't related to what you were talking about in regards to a comparison.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/pinchin.html

Mike

[Lechmere]

In my opinion the most likely identity of the informant was one of the three horse butchers who had been told by Thane about the murder and were going round the corner to gawp and in doing so would have passed Mulshaw.

[Monty]

I agree with Ed,

For me it was Brittain.

Monty

[Defective Detective]

Def Detective,

Go here and read the 2nd paragraph. You'll have what you were looking for, but it isn't related to what you were talking about in regards to a comparison.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/pinchin.html

Mike

Yes! That's it. Thank you.

A few scatterbrained thoughts that popped into my head as I read this:

1. 'John Clearly' was told by this mystery soldier about the body three days before it was discovered. I mean, I guess it could be coincidental, and a lot of the 'rationalists' who approach the case may say something like "well, it was completely unconnected to the torso", but that doesn't feel right to my gut. I have a very strong impression that the soldier was the murderer - does anyone want to make the opposite case?

2. There's no report of the soldier that 'Clearly' reported to see, though we know from the Martha Tabram ID line-ups that the military was not necessarily the most helpful institution in the case. Do we think think this man was really a soldier? If not, are there any suspects who may have had an ex-military background? For that matter, does anyone know how difficult a matter it would have been for someone to acquire a uniform for the purpose of disguise?

3. Speaking of Tabram, do we think that this event makes it more plausible that at least Tabram's murderer and the Torso killer are one and the same? I wonder just how many murderous 'soldiers' could have been loose in the City at the same time.

4. Does anyone else agree with me that, if Jack were the Torso killer, the Mulshaw event wasn't a couple of butchers (which I admit is probably a marginally more probable scenario otherwise) and he very much threw himself headlong into this case? If Jack/Mr. Torso were calling attention to his deeds at the very scenes of the crimes, then I also think it very plausible that he was a letter writer. The psychology, to me, suggests a desire to be known for what he is.

I don't want to put too fine a point on this one concept: I think it entire possible that Mulshaw, Mrs. Paumier and Clearly could all have been lying, or one or some of them; or that, as with Mulshaw, what looks like nefarious game-playing by a killer has a perfectly logical explanation. But I also think that the three taken together must at least suggest the possibility that one killer's idea of fun involved alarming bystanders about his crimes. And if that were the case, it suggests a psychology quite remote from the now-contemporary idea of the Ripper as basically a Kosminskian lunatic.

[Bridewell]

though we know from the Martha Tabram ID line-ups that the military was not necessarily the most helpful institution in the case.

They paraded two separate Guards Units on different occasions and at different locations to accommodate the police. In what way were they unhelpful?

[RockySullivan]

Yes! That's it. Thank you.

A few scatterbrained thoughts that popped into my head as I read this:

1. 'John Clearly' was told by this mystery soldier about the body three days before it was discovered. I mean, I guess it could be coincidental, and a lot of the 'rationalists' who approach the case may say something like "well, it was completely unconnected to the torso", but that doesn't feel right to my gut. I have a very strong impression that the soldier was the murderer - does anyone want to make the opposite case?

2. There's no report of the soldier that 'Clearly' reported to see, though we know from the Martha Tabram ID line-ups that the military was not necessarily the most helpful institution in the case. Do we think think this man was really a soldier? If not, are there any suspects who may have had an ex-military background? For that matter, does anyone know how difficult a matter it would have been for someone to acquire a uniform for the purpose of disguise?

3. Speaking of Tabram, do we think that this event makes it more plausible that at least Tabram's murderer and the Torso killer are one and the same? I wonder just how many murderous 'soldiers' could have been loose in the City at the same time.

4. Does anyone else agree with me that, if Jack were the Torso killer, the Mulshaw event wasn't a couple of butchers (which I admit is probably a marginally more probable scenario otherwise) and he very much threw himself headlong into this case? If Jack/Mr. Torso were calling attention to his deeds at the very scenes of the crimes, then I also think it very plausible that he was a letter writer. The psychology, to me, suggests a desire to be known for what he is.

I don't want to put too fine a point on this one concept: I think it entire possible that Mulshaw, Mrs. Paumier and Clearly could all have been lying, or one or some of them; or that, as with Mulshaw, what looks like nefarious game-playing by a killer has a perfectly logical explanation. But I also think that the three taken together must at least suggest the possibility that one killer's idea of fun involved alarming bystanders about his crimes. And if that were the case, it suggests a psychology quite remote from the now-contemporary idea of the Ripper as basically a Kosminskian lunatic.

The strange thing for me is in the liz Jackson torso case she was left in her drawers with initials that where eventually traced as shorts she's bought second hand from LE Fisher. If the dismemberment and spreading of her body parts was done to hinder id...why leave the shorts with initials? An oversight it's possible yes. Or the dismemberment wasn't necessarily to hinder id but for the shock value of different people finding body parts. After all the whitehall torso was left under the police station...that is a sign of taunting and staging to create terror. And the ripper crimes...there purpose may have been the staging ....with the victims bodies opened up and their legs spread. And Mary Kelly was quote a scene. It's possible that torso/jack got his kicks from the terror his mutilates victims created. I know errata will disagree and she's Has a better perspective than me on this case obviously, but I think torso and jack show signs of the same sick mind