Shwartz/Stride Timing

[Tani]

Hi friends,

Sorry if this has been done to death. I can't be bothered trawling through the forum to find this so apologies.

What is the time between Schwartz seeing BS man and Liz Stride death?

What time did the club close?

Sorry I know these are basic questions but I'm tired and I'm drinking.

[Lewis C]

Hi Tani,

When Stride's body was discovered, there were still people at the club, but there had been more there earlier.

We don't know exactly when Stride died and also don't know exactly when Schwartz saw BS man, but for the latter, Schwartz estimated 12:45. Stride's body was discovered just after 1:00, so she might have died as late as 1:00. Schwartz said that he saw her at 12:45 and Brown said that he saw her a few minutes after that, so if either of them really saw her, she couldn't have died before that sighting.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t think that I’ve ever heard mention of a closing time for the club? Closing times were strict for pubs and beer houses but there were still men singing upstairs that could be heard from the streets..including by passing Constable’s like Smith, so I’m assuming that the club didn’t sell alcohol meaning that they could stay open as long as they wanted? I could certainly be wrong on this. Someone might know for certain.

[seanr]

The club did not officially sell alcohol, so I'm giving to understand. Nor did it sell tobacco products like cigars.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The club did not officially sell alcohol, so I'm giving to understand. Nor did it sell tobacco products like cigars.

Cheers Sean, I didn’t think so.

[Wickerman]

I don’t think that I’ve ever heard mention of a closing time for the club? Closing times were strict for pubs and beer houses but there were still men singing upstairs that could be heard from the streets..including by passing Constable’s like Smith, so I’m assuming that the club didn’t sell alcohol meaning that they could stay open as long as they wanted? I could certainly be wrong on this. Someone might know for certain.

Even if the club did serve alcohol, it would be for members only, not the general public. So open/closing rules did not apply.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Even if the club did serve alcohol, it would be for members only, not the general public. So open/closing rules did not apply.

Ah, I didn’t realise that that could happen Wick.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Ah, I didn’t realise that that could happen Wick.

Cheers

Yes, the Police Code has a section on Licensing. Rule 1 reads:
Every person selling or exposing for sale by retail any intoxicating liquors must be duly licensed, but clubs do not require to take out a license for such sale to members only, for consumption on the premises.

The subsection on Closing Times is applicable to licensed premises only.

Under the Police Code, a Club is described as a Private House collectively owned by the Membership.

[Tani]

So what is being stated is that there was potentially a 24/7 club on the go just feet from where JTR/someone decides to commit a murder?

I'm assuming the killer would have known this.

[Wickerman]

I'm not stating anything, other than the open/closing times did not apply to clubs. They were allowed to set their own times.
From the evidence given it seems things wound down about 11:30 pm, when most members left, but some remained singing upstairs.
The killer might know the clubs did not close when pubs closed, these closing rules applied to establishments within a 4 mile radius of Charring Cross.

[seanr]

So what is being stated is that there was potentially a 24/7 club on the go just feet from where JTR/someone decides to commit a murder?

I'm assuming the killer would have known this.

24/7 might be a stretch. Certainly events carrying on past midnight was not unusual. There are reports of events carrying on until 1 or 2am in the morning. As was the case on this day in particular, as several members were still in the club singing.

The witness Fanny Mortimer went out into the street to listen to the communal singing, which suggests this could even be heard outside. So yes, its likely the killer was aware that there were still people in the club.

[The Rookie Detective]

24/7 might be a stretch. Certainly events carrying on past midnight was not unusual. There are reports of events carrying on until 1 or 2am in the morning. As was the case on this day in particular, as several members were still in the club singing.

The witness Fanny Mortimer went out into the street to listen to the communal singing, which suggests this could even be heard outside. So yes, its likely the killer was aware that there were still people in the club.

That's a very good point.

If the music/singing could be heard from the yard, then the killer must have heard it, and therefore have been aware that the club door could swing open at any given moment.

He appears to have thrived on the danger of it all.

Similar to practically all the murders.


An impulsive desire to kill via a blitz attack, yet organised and aware of his escape routes and police beats.

Even with the manner of the wounds he inflicted; some deliberate, methodical and ritualistic, and some frenzied, random and maniacal.

It's almost as though the killer had a split personality.

Or personalities.


Not so much paranoid schizophrenic, but more multiple personality disorder.


When I was 16, I witnessed someone who clearly had this disorder; a woman in her 60's sitting on a coach, but talking to herself in different voices, including a man with a deep bass voice.

I have always believed that the Ripper had the same disorder; like he was possessed.


Pure evil

[Wickerman]

. . .

He appears to have thrived on the danger of it all.

Similar to practically all the murders.


An impulsive desire to kill via a blitz attack, yet organised and aware of his escape routes and police beats.

Even with the manner of the wounds he inflicted; some deliberate, methodical and ritualistic, and some frenzied, random and maniacal.

It's almost as though the killer had a split personality.
. . .

The tradition since the murders seems to have been that the victims were suddenly attacked by a monster coming out of the shadows brandishing the knife.

Yet the reality could be quite the opposite.
We never hear of screams, no authorities have identified a struggle at the scene of the murder.
All indications are that this killer was calm, approachable, and had a temperament to win their confidence.
Yes, we have one example of a scream of 'murder', we just don't know if it came from the victim, or a witness to something.
We also know exclamations of 'murder' were relatively common, and the easiest means of drawing attention to some altercation.

With Nichols and Chapman we have no idea when they met the killer, and for how long he may have courted them while walking the streets.
Stride appears to have been in the company of a man for almost 2 hours before she was dispatched.
Yet, with both Eddowes & Kelly, they may have been murdered in less than an hour after meeting their killers. Eddowes certainly, not so sure with Kelly.

Couple the possibility the killer chose to date his victims, with some evidence of strangulation, I suspect the killer chose to get to know his victims first, win their confidence, then when the time was right, choke or strangle them, looking into their eyes as they slip into unconsciousness.
I'm pretty sure none of his victims ever saw the knife, they were down and out before he cut their throats.

I'm more inclined to think this killer got his thrill from the strangulation, and from doing this in public. The subsequent mutilations were more for shock value for those who discovered the body, and the public who would read of the crime.

I don't think he was a blitz killer.