Was She Wrong?

[c.d.]

As for the key/door breaking business do we know exactly what McCarthy told the police? Was it along the lines of I do not have a key to the room nor have I ever had a key to the room in my possession? Or was it simply I have a key but not on me at the moment? Big difference but both would result in breaking down the door.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is it really likely that McCarthy would have vanished for 45 minutes or so to commit a murder just feet from where he lived. Elizabeth Prater testified that his shop was still open at 1.20am. Bowyer said that he used the pump in the court several times during the night with his final visit being at 3.00. I doesn’t seem likely that he would have done that if he was at home so perhaps he was working. This might narrow down further any ‘alone time’ that McCarthy might have had. Apart from that he was known and so would have been taking a big risk of being seen (and identified) going into Kelly’s room (or exiting it for that matter)

[Lewis C]

He didn’t enter the room before the police arrived Lewis.

“When I looked through the window the sight I saw was more ghastly even than I had prepared myself for. On the bed lay the body, while the table was covered with lumps of flesh. Soon Superintendent Arnold arrived, and instructions to burst the door open were given. I at once forced it with a pickaxe and we entered. The sight looked like the work of a devil. The poor woman had been completely disembowelled. Her entrails were cut out and placed on a table. It was these that I had taken to be lumps of flesh. The woman's nose had been cut off, and her face was gashed and mutilated so that she was quite beyond recognition. Both her breasts, too, had been cut clean away and placed by her side. Her liver and other organs were on the table. I had heard a great deal about the Whitechapel murders, but I had never expected to see such a sight. The body was covered with blood and so was the bed. The whole scene is more than I can discribe [sic]. I hope I may never see such a sight again.”


Originally posted by Kattrup.

If McCarthy was giving an honest statement here, it certainly does sound like he didn't enter the room until the police arrived. And I have no reason to doubt that he was giving an honest statement.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If McCarthy was giving an honest statement here, it certainly does sound like he didn't enter the room until the police arrived. And I have no reason to doubt that he was giving an honest statement.

Hi Lewis,

In a dissertation on here Don Souden suggested, based on the assumption that there was a gap between Bowyer going for the police and McCarthy following, that McCarthy needed to get into Kelly’s room to remove something incriminating. I believe that he felt that it could have been something that showed that he was receiving ‘immoral earnings’ from Kelly. There’s no evidence for this though and I’m wary of assuming any real gap. Wording can be misleading. Maybe he just felt that Bowyer could get there quicker and he followed on (although, if I recall correctly, and it’s possible that I’m not, there is some dispute about Bowyer’s age?) Or as I said earlier, maybe he needed to go and tell his wife and get her to mind the shop while he was away?

[c.d.]

I have a feeling that evidence for "immoral earnings" would have been of absolutely no concern to the police at this time. Or McCarthy either for that matter.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have a feeling that evidence for "immoral earnings" would have been of absolutely no concern to the police at this time. Or McCarthy either for that matter.

c.d.

I have a feeling that you’re absolutely right c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Might The Star have got it right?

McCarthy: “Then I said, "Harry, don't tell anyone; go and fetch the police." As he was going I recovered myself, and thought I had better go with him, and followed him down the court, and we both saw Inspector Back, who returned with us at once.”


Sometimes the simple answers are the actual answers. Did McCarthy, feeling a bit ‘groggy’ after seeing the body, send his servant to the police station. He then realised that he should also go so he pulled himself together and followed him. Maybe he caught up with him?

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

In a dissertation on here Don Souden suggested, based on the assumption that there was a gap between Bowyer going for the police and McCarthy following, that McCarthy needed to get into Kelly’s room to remove something incriminating. I believe that he felt that it could have been something that showed that he was receiving ‘immoral earnings’ from Kelly. There’s no evidence for this though and I’m wary of assuming any real gap. Wording can be misleading. Maybe he just felt that Bowyer could get there quicker and he followed on (although, if I recall correctly, and it’s possible that I’m not, there is some dispute about Bowyer’s age?) Or as I said earlier, maybe he needed to go and tell his wife and get her to mind the shop while he was away?

Hi Herlock,

I suppose that even with a very short time gap, he could have gone into the room very briefly, but he wouldn't have wanted to be seen doing that, and I doubt that he had a compelling reason to do it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I suppose that even with a very short time gap, he could have gone into the room very briefly, but he wouldn't have wanted to be seen doing that, and I doubt that he had a compelling reason to do it.

Same here Lewis.

[FrankO]

But the flint lock mechanism surely made the door lock automatically once it was closed?

I may be wrong of course.

As I understand it, this would depend on whether the bolt was engaged & fully out or not. If engaged, it would automatically lock once it was closed; if not engaged, it would not automatically lock (this would be the 'on the latch' position of the bolt).

[FrankO]

If Kelly had left the door unlatched when Mary Cox saw Kelly and Blotchy enter the room, then how was the door locked when Mccarthy discovered Kelly?

This could have only been done by the killer after he left.

Yes, or by Mary Jane herself before he left.

[FrankO]

By proxy it then rules him out as the killer.

What are you saying here, RD? That the killer couldn't have entered her room together with her or after a knock on her door whereupon she let him in?

[FrankO]

The landlord should have been included in that shortlist of individuals who could have accessed the room to murder Kelly.

Any man who could have posed as a punter should have been on that list, RD.

[The Rookie Detective]

I am suggesting that Mccarthy was trying to give the impression to the police that he had no way of entering the room, and therefore trying to rule himself out as a suspect.

By using a pickaxe and not having a key; it's his way of letting the police know that he couldn't have got into Kelly's room to murder her.

Whereas if he DID have a key, then the police would regard him as a suspect because he had a means of access to the murder room.

[The Rookie Detective]

Let's also not forget that Mccarthy was the big dog of the neighbourhood.

Dorset Street was his territory.

Arnold and Abberline attended "charity" events that Mccarthy attended, along with the likes of Crossingham, Gehringer etc...

Mccarthy was highly regarded in Dorset Street; which is another way of saying that he was feared.

He was a boxing promoter for over 40 years, had 17 kids and was involved heavily with the theatre and entertainments.

Crossingham himself was Godfather to several of Mccarthy's kids.

So I would regard Mccarthy with extreme caution when looking at the role he played around the time of the murder.

You can be sure as anything that IF Astrakhan existed, he was a boxer/pugilist/actor/entertainer etc...

And Kelly was closely involved with the theatre; whoever she was, her connection to the theatre has always been underestimated.


It's therefore no wonder that Caroline Maxwell comes forward to say she witnessed Kelly alive and well. Her husband Henry was a lodging house keeper in Dorset Street...and who ran Dorset Street?


John Mccarthy aka "Jack McCarthy"