Was She Wrong?

[The Rookie Detective]

It appears Superintendent Arnold's arrival prompted Mccarthy to use a pickaxe to break down the door so as to gain access to the room.

That means that either Mccarthy didn't know being able to access the room via the broken window; ergo, because Kelly hadn't told him.

or...Mccarthy knew about the window but failed to mention it to Arnold, so as to give the impression that Mccarthy couldn't access the room prior to Arnold's arrival.

or... the window was never broken and Barnett lied.


Fascinating

[c.d.]

I would add another possibility. That McCarthy knew about the broken window but failed to recall that fact given the circumstances. Why do we always expect logical and rational behavior from people given what they had just seen?

I see nothing suspicious here at all.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

I would add another possibility. That McCarthy knew about the broken window but failed to recall that fact given the circumstances. Why do we always expect logical and rational behavior from people given what they had just seen?

I see nothing suspicious here at all.

c.d.

Possible.

But when we consider that needlessly obliterating a door would have cost Mccarthy money to replace; he hadn't replaced the window, then it does seem odd how McCarthy didn't just say to Arnold...
"Forget the axe, I can open the door through this broken window."

He either didn't know about the broken window because Kelly and Barnett hadn't told him, or Mccarthy didn't want the police to be aware that he knew of a way to access the room without a key.

Seeing as the key conveniently disappeared and then somehow reappeared (allegedly) then there are indeed grounds to question these unexplained anomalies further.

Mccarthy wasn't stupid by any means and the idea that he had TIME before Arnold arrived to think about ways to access the room, means that the idea of accessing the room via the broken window must have at least crossed his mind.

One would assume that in order for Mccarthy to have seen Kelly laying on the bed BEFORE Arnold arrived, he must have observed the broken window BEFORE the officer told him break the door down.

The most logical explanation to me seems to be that Mccarthy knew of the broken window, but DIDN'T know that the door could be opened by reaching through to lift up the latch.
Because if Mccarthy DID know that the door could be opened by reaching through the broken window, then considering the key vanished and he used an axe to break down the door, it then makes Mccarthy's behaviour slightly suspicious.

Or we can ignore all the anomalies in the case and question nothing...which is precisely the reason why the case has never been solved.

Inconvenience shouldn't be an excuse for not rasing questions that stir the pot.

[Kattrup]

One would assume that in order for Mccarthy to have seen Kelly laying on the bed BEFORE Arnold arrived, he must have observed the broken window BEFORE the officer told him break the door down.

The most logical explanation to me seems to be that Mccarthy knew of the broken window, but DIDN'T know that the door could be opened by reaching through to lift up the latch.
Because if Mccarthy DID know that the door could be opened by reaching through the broken window, then considering the key vanished and he used an axe to break down the door, it then makes Mccarthy's behaviour slightly suspicious.

Or we can ignore all the anomalies in the case and question nothing...which is precisely the reason why the case has never been solved.

Inconvenience shouldn't be an excuse for not rasing questions that stir the pot.

Hi TRD

I'm not sure what inconvenience you're referring to, but some of the questions you've asked are answered by readily-available sources, the inquest testimonials.

Both Bowyer, McCarthy and Bagster Philips mention looking through the broken window, so pretty much everybody present was aware of it. Bowyer even put his hand through it to move a curtain.

Since McCarthy eventually forced the door with an axe (I don't know why you think he 'obliterated' it, doors back then were not the flimsy Ikea-like quality of today's society), the only possible conclusion is that it was not apparent to anyone that one could open the door by reaching through the window.

Perhaps the table was in the way, perhaps it required sidling very close up to the window with the shoulder and stretching, thus making it seem impossible at first, or perhaps they simply assumed or thought the door had no latch on the other side and would still require a key from the inside.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi TRD

I'm not sure what inconvenience you're referring to, but some of the questions you've asked are answered by readily-available sources, the inquest testimonials.

Both Bowyer, McCarthy and Bagster Philips mention looking through the broken window, so pretty much everybody present was aware of it. Bowyer even put his hand through it to move a curtain.

Since McCarthy eventually forced the door with an axe (I don't know why you think he 'obliterated' it, doors back then were not the flimsy Ikea-like quality of today's society), the only possible conclusion is that it was not apparent to anyone that one could open the door by reaching through the window.

Perhaps the table was in the way, perhaps it required sidling very close up to the window with the shoulder and stretching, thus making it seem impossible at first, or perhaps they simply assumed or thought the door had no latch on the other side and would still require a key from the inside.

Thank you for confirming all of that Kattrup.

So it proves that nobody knew the door could be opened without a key, by reaching through the broken window and lifting the latch.

Apart from Kelly and Barnett.

And possibly any of the other women who stayed in Kelly's room

The question is; did the killer know?

[The Rookie Detective]

Henry Hanslope who had stayed in the room directly opposite Kelly's room, may have also observed Kelly or Barnett reach through the window to open the door.

Whether he was there at the time of the murder remains unknown.

But the man who was stopped by police as he left the court matches Hanslope very closely.

The only discrepancy being that the room number given by the man was different.

I believe that if this market porter was in fact Hanslope, then he came from the room opposite Kelly's window and was arguably the man who murdered Kelly.

Where's the last place one would expect the killer to be?

In the room directly opposite.

Maybe the killer left Kelly's room and went next door to clean up...and never left the court until the next morning when he managed to convince the police he was just on his way to get milk.

As an actor, Hanslope had the necessary skill set to get past the police without raising suspicion.

[FrankO]

So it proves that nobody knew the door could be opened without a key, by reaching through the broken window and lifting the latch.

It indeed seems to have been the case that nobody knew or thought of this, RD, until Barnett told the police how he & Mary Jane got in after loosing the key.

The question is; did the killer know?

If he went in together with Mary Jane or was invited in after a knock on the door, then there would have been no need for him to know. He just needed to close the door behind him.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

But when we consider that needlessly obliterating a door would have cost Mccarthy money to replace; he hadn't replaced the window, then it does seem odd how McCarthy didn't just say to Arnold...
"Forget the axe, I can open the door through this broken window."

He either didn't know about the broken window because Kelly and Barnett hadn't told him, or Mccarthy didn't want the police to be aware that he knew of a way to access the room without a key.

A landlord that didn't have a key to his own rented premises? Unusual, to say the least. Key or broken window, he didn't want anyone to know that he had access to the room. What was he doing when he sent Bowyer ahead and followed later to the Police Station?

[c.d.]

Unless the police were complete idiots (and I don't think they were) wouldn't one of the first things they attempted to determine be how the killer got into the room? Wouldn't that entail questioning McCarthy as to the key situation? How many were there? Who had them? Was there a spare key? Where was that kept? Could someone have gotten access to it without McCarthy's knowledge?

Wouldn't the question of why the door was broken when McCarthy had a key have been addressed in all this?

c.d.

[c.d.]

But don't we see this same level of suspicion surrounding the club members at Berner Street? Why didn't all their times match exactly? Why didn't all their stories jibe exactly? Why did they take some of the actions that they did but failed to take other actions?

So are these suspicions justified or do the represent confused and illogical and irrational behavior from normal human beings who have just experienced an enormous and very upsetting set of circumstances?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Where did McCarthy live?

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Where did McCarthy live?

c.d.

I’ve always been under the impression that he lived above the shop at number 27 c.d. but I could be wrong.

I just saw Jose Oranto’s thread ‘Register of Common Lodging Houses’ over on JtRForums where he lists:


JOHN McCARTHY

Residence of the keeper
27 Dorset St.

11-12 Dorset St. - 45
15 Great Pearl St. - 80
30 Dorset St. - 117

28-29 Dorset St. - 48 (1892)
22 St Anne St. (Limehouse) - 190 (1894)

[c.d.]

Hello Herlock,

When the police arrived I have to imagine their first question was to ask McCarthy if he had a key. If he said I have to go home and get it then depending on where he lived they might have said no, we need to get in the room now and thus broke down the door.

c.d.

[c.d.]

We are also assuming that McCarthy had the spare key but could Bowyer have had it for some reason? And was it a room specific key or one key that could open every room in the apartment building?

c.d.

[c.d.]

If Bowyer had the key then I am assuming he did not have it with him at the time.

c.d.