Was She Wrong?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi TRD

I'm not sure what inconvenience you're referring to, but some of the questions you've asked are answered by readily-available sources, the inquest testimonials.

Both Bowyer, McCarthy and Bagster Philips mention looking through the broken window, so pretty much everybody present was aware of it. Bowyer even put his hand through it to move a curtain.

Since McCarthy eventually forced the door with an axe (I don't know why you think he 'obliterated' it, doors back then were not the flimsy Ikea-like quality of today's society), the only possible conclusion is that it was not apparent to anyone that one could open the door by reaching through the window.

Perhaps the table was in the way, perhaps it required sidling very close up to the window with the shoulder and stretching, thus making it seem impossible at first, or perhaps they simply assumed or thought the door had no latch on the other side and would still require a key from the inside.

Thank you for confirming all of that Kattrup.

So it proves that nobody knew the door could be opened without a key, by reaching through the broken window and lifting the latch.

Apart from Kelly and Barnett.

And possibly any of the other women who stayed in Kelly's room

The question is; did the killer know?

[Kattrup]

One would assume that in order for Mccarthy to have seen Kelly laying on the bed BEFORE Arnold arrived, he must have observed the broken window BEFORE the officer told him break the door down.

The most logical explanation to me seems to be that Mccarthy knew of the broken window, but DIDN'T know that the door could be opened by reaching through to lift up the latch.
Because if Mccarthy DID know that the door could be opened by reaching through the broken window, then considering the key vanished and he used an axe to break down the door, it then makes Mccarthy's behaviour slightly suspicious.

Or we can ignore all the anomalies in the case and question nothing...which is precisely the reason why the case has never been solved.

Inconvenience shouldn't be an excuse for not rasing questions that stir the pot.

Hi TRD

I'm not sure what inconvenience you're referring to, but some of the questions you've asked are answered by readily-available sources, the inquest testimonials.

Both Bowyer, McCarthy and Bagster Philips mention looking through the broken window, so pretty much everybody present was aware of it. Bowyer even put his hand through it to move a curtain.

Since McCarthy eventually forced the door with an axe (I don't know why you think he 'obliterated' it, doors back then were not the flimsy Ikea-like quality of today's society), the only possible conclusion is that it was not apparent to anyone that one could open the door by reaching through the window.

Perhaps the table was in the way, perhaps it required sidling very close up to the window with the shoulder and stretching, thus making it seem impossible at first, or perhaps they simply assumed or thought the door had no latch on the other side and would still require a key from the inside.

[The Rookie Detective]

I would add another possibility. That McCarthy knew about the broken window but failed to recall that fact given the circumstances. Why do we always expect logical and rational behavior from people given what they had just seen?

I see nothing suspicious here at all.

c.d.

Possible.

But when we consider that needlessly obliterating a door would have cost Mccarthy money to replace; he hadn't replaced the window, then it does seem odd how McCarthy didn't just say to Arnold...
"Forget the axe, I can open the door through this broken window."

He either didn't know about the broken window because Kelly and Barnett hadn't told him, or Mccarthy didn't want the police to be aware that he knew of a way to access the room without a key.

Seeing as the key conveniently disappeared and then somehow reappeared (allegedly) then there are indeed grounds to question these unexplained anomalies further.

Mccarthy wasn't stupid by any means and the idea that he had TIME before Arnold arrived to think about ways to access the room, means that the idea of accessing the room via the broken window must have at least crossed his mind.

One would assume that in order for Mccarthy to have seen Kelly laying on the bed BEFORE Arnold arrived, he must have observed the broken window BEFORE the officer told him break the door down.

The most logical explanation to me seems to be that Mccarthy knew of the broken window, but DIDN'T know that the door could be opened by reaching through to lift up the latch.
Because if Mccarthy DID know that the door could be opened by reaching through the broken window, then considering the key vanished and he used an axe to break down the door, it then makes Mccarthy's behaviour slightly suspicious.

Or we can ignore all the anomalies in the case and question nothing...which is precisely the reason why the case has never been solved.

Inconvenience shouldn't be an excuse for not rasing questions that stir the pot.

[c.d.]

I would add another possibility. That McCarthy knew about the broken window but failed to recall that fact given the circumstances. Why do we always expect logical and rational behavior from people given what they had just seen?

I see nothing suspicious here at all.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

It appears Superintendent Arnold's arrival prompted Mccarthy to use a pickaxe to break down the door so as to gain access to the room.

That means that either Mccarthy didn't know being able to access the room via the broken window; ergo, because Kelly hadn't told him.

or...Mccarthy knew about the window but failed to mention it to Arnold, so as to give the impression that Mccarthy couldn't access the room prior to Arnold's arrival.

or... the window was never broken and Barnett lied.


Fascinating

[Lewis C]

Interesting. So McCarthy entered the room after he sent Bowyer on to the police station? How did he get into the room? Reaching through the broken window to pull back the door bolt?

And then apparently didn't share with the police the knowledge that one could enter the room without forcing the door open with a pickaxe.

[Scott Nelson]

Most likely. He sent Bowyer ahead of him and came into the station several minutes later. Did he enter after the police arrived? Probably not.

Interesting. So McCarthy entered the room after he sent Bowyer on to the police station? How did he get into the room? Reaching through the broken window to pull back the door bolt?

[The Rookie Detective]

Yes, he did

Interestingly, it was also reported that Kelly's Liver was placed on her right thigh.

That would appear to support the photo of MJK taken post mortem, where it looks very much like a mass on the top of her thigh/groin.

But that same article also said she was found naked, which wasn't true.

So it's anyone's guess where each organ and body part was actually found.

The frustration of different newspapers giving different information.

[Tom_Wescott]

Did McCarthy enter the room?

Most likely. He sent Bowyer ahead of him and came into the station several minutes later. Did he enter after the police arrived? Probably not.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Kattrup]

Did McCarthy enter the room?

Yes, he did

When I looked through the window the sight I saw was more ghastly even than I had prepared myself for. On the bed lay the body, while the table was covered with lumps of flesh. Soon Superintendent Arnold arrived, and instructions to burst the door open were given. I at once forced it with a pickaxe and we entered. The sight looked like the work of a devil. The poor woman had been completely disembowelled. Her entrails were cut out and placed on a table. It was these that I had taken to be lumps of flesh. The woman's nose had been cut off, and her face was gashed and mutilated so that she was quite beyond recognition. Both her breasts, too, had been cut clean away and placed by her side. Her liver and other organs were on the table. I had heard a great deal about the Whitechapel murders, but I had never expected to see such a sight. The body was covered with blood and so was the bed. The whole scene is more than I can discribe [sic]. I hope I may never see such a sight again.

[Scott Nelson]

Did McCarthy enter the room?

[Kattrup]

Two possibilities immediately spring to mind:

A. He was her killer

B. Someone told him.

I'll go with B.

c.d.

Considering MJK’s ears were not cut off, TRD’s premise seems flawed, since McCarthy only thought they were cut off.

As for option A, the killer would have known the ears weren’t cut off, thus McCarthy was either not the killer, or he was another cartoonish serial killer supervillain like Charles Cross.

As for option B, someone could easily have told him in error.

However, since McCarthy actually entered the room and saw the body in full, I’ll go for:

C. He saw the disfigured face and head himself and mistakenly thought the ears were cut cut off. This misconception he then repeated to the press.

[c.d.]

I still find it fascinating how John Mccarthy referred to seeing that Kelly's ears had been cut off.

That is despite him viewing the body from outside the window, and Kelly facing him with her left ear not in view.

How did he know her ears had been cut off?

Two possibilities immediately spring to mind:

A. He was her killer

B. Someone told him.

I'll go with B.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Caroline Maxwell was either...


telling the truth and was correct.
telling the truth, but was incorrect and misidentified Kelly
telling the truth, but was incorrect about the date.
lying.

What would be a reason for her to lie?

Was she aiming to give someone she knew an alibi?

If for example, her husband could have been considered a suspect if Mary wasn't seen alive after 4am, then could Caroline have been attempting to indirectly provide her husband with an alibi?
Making up a story about seeing Mary alive and well after she was meant to have been killed makes little sense unless Caroline was trying to cover for someone.

it seems to me more likely that Caroline was mistaken about Kelly's identity.

The reason I say this is because everyone else seems to have been too.

Kelly really was an anomaly in every sense of the word.


It's clear that she used a false name.


Hiding from her past it would seem.


Hiding from someone from her past too perhaps?

[The Rookie Detective]

I still find it fascinating how John Mccarthy referred to seeing that Kelly's ears had been cut off.

That is despite him viewing the body from outside the window, and Kelly facing him with her left ear not in view.

How did he know her ears had been cut off?