Was She Wrong?

[c.d.]

I have a feeling that evidence for "immoral earnings" would have been of absolutely no concern to the police at this time. Or McCarthy either for that matter.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If McCarthy was giving an honest statement here, it certainly does sound like he didn't enter the room until the police arrived. And I have no reason to doubt that he was giving an honest statement.

Hi Lewis,

In a dissertation on here Don Souden suggested, based on the assumption that there was a gap between Bowyer going for the police and McCarthy following, that McCarthy needed to get into Kelly’s room to remove something incriminating. I believe that he felt that it could have been something that showed that he was receiving ‘immoral earnings’ from Kelly. There’s no evidence for this though and I’m wary of assuming any real gap. Wording can be misleading. Maybe he just felt that Bowyer could get there quicker and he followed on (although, if I recall correctly, and it’s possible that I’m not, there is some dispute about Bowyer’s age?) Or as I said earlier, maybe he needed to go and tell his wife and get her to mind the shop while he was away?

[Lewis C]

He didn’t enter the room before the police arrived Lewis.

“When I looked through the window the sight I saw was more ghastly even than I had prepared myself for. On the bed lay the body, while the table was covered with lumps of flesh. Soon Superintendent Arnold arrived, and instructions to burst the door open were given. I at once forced it with a pickaxe and we entered. The sight looked like the work of a devil. The poor woman had been completely disembowelled. Her entrails were cut out and placed on a table. It was these that I had taken to be lumps of flesh. The woman's nose had been cut off, and her face was gashed and mutilated so that she was quite beyond recognition. Both her breasts, too, had been cut clean away and placed by her side. Her liver and other organs were on the table. I had heard a great deal about the Whitechapel murders, but I had never expected to see such a sight. The body was covered with blood and so was the bed. The whole scene is more than I can discribe [sic]. I hope I may never see such a sight again.”


Originally posted by Kattrup.

If McCarthy was giving an honest statement here, it certainly does sound like he didn't enter the room until the police arrived. And I have no reason to doubt that he was giving an honest statement.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is it really likely that McCarthy would have vanished for 45 minutes or so to commit a murder just feet from where he lived. Elizabeth Prater testified that his shop was still open at 1.20am. Bowyer said that he used the pump in the court several times during the night with his final visit being at 3.00. I doesn’t seem likely that he would have done that if he was at home so perhaps he was working. This might narrow down further any ‘alone time’ that McCarthy might have had. Apart from that he was known and so would have been taking a big risk of being seen (and identified) going into Kelly’s room (or exiting it for that matter)

[c.d.]

As for the key/door breaking business do we know exactly what McCarthy told the police? Was it along the lines of I do not have a key to the room nor have I ever had a key to the room in my possession? Or was it simply I have a key but not on me at the moment? Big difference but both would result in breaking down the door.

c.d.

[c.d.]

But he was also a man of influence and power, so it's also fair to suggest that he may have pulled a few strings to ensure he wasn't in the frame for the murder.

Given the horrific nature of the murder and the whole Ripper scare that would seem to take some serious string pulling. And is there any evidence of that?

I have seen nothing to indicate that somehow McCarthy was the Don Corleone of Whitechapel.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is too much made of the supposed gap between Bowyer and McCarthy going to Commercial Street Station? Was it really much of a gap?

McCarthy said: “You had better fetch the police."

then: ““I followed Bowyer to Commercial-street Police-station, where I saw Inspector Beck. I inquired at first for Inspector Reid. Inspector Beck returned with me at once.”

Then Bowyer said: “We both went to the police-station, but first of all we went to the window, and McCarthy looked in to satisfy himself. We told the inspector at the police-station of what we had seen.”

It seems to me that McCarthy suggested that Bowyer go for the police and McCarthy either went with him at the same time but at a slower pace or that he followed close behind after doing something…perhaps he first went to tell his wife where he was going? The fact that Bowyer said “We both went…” suggests to me that if there was a gap between the two men it wasn’t a significant one.

[The Rookie Detective]

But again, R.D., a landlord saying he does not have a key is more suspicious than saying he has one.

It is a story that can easily be checked and if it is determined that he does have one he has now lied to the police.

Since it was later determined that the room could be entered from the window or that Mary invited her killer into room it does not rule him out as the killer especially since he knew Mary and interacted with her.

c.d.

I agree that Mccarthy shouldn't be ruled out, far from it.

In terms of the key, one of the first things the police.would have wanted to establish, would have been...

"Who had access to the murder scene?"

The landlord should have been included in that shortlist of individuals who could have accessed the room to murder Kelly.

But when Arnold arrives and the use of a pickaxe is required to get into the the room, there must have been a point whereby Mccarthy tells the police....

"Sorry, I don't have a key"

But rather than consider this suspicious, the police appear to have accepted his story. That includes him not having a key to access the room.

When this information is relayed to Arnold, it seems that he was only focused on getting into the room, and presumably wasn't bothered about the absence of a key.

Mccarthy then uses a pickaxe to break thorugh the door.

But imagine if Mccarthy had said...

"Don't bother with the air, I've got a key for the room"

From an investigative point of view, this would have at some point been reported back to the police that Mccarthy had a key, and therefore he would then be added to the shortlist of individuals who had access to the room without requiring the victim to be alive to facilitate entry.

In that regards, having a key would be more of a problem for Mccarthy.

But by saying he didn't have a key, he must have been damn sure that this couldn't be countered and that the key wouldn't somehow reappear (until at least after the inquest had concluded)
In other words, by using the pickaxe he must have known the key wouldn't suddenly.appear and prove him to be a liar.
He also couldn't be added to the shortlist of individuals who had access to the room.

Anyone who had access to the room would have automatically been considered a suspect.

Mccarthy wasn't included in that list.

But he was also a man of influence and power, so it's also fair to suggest that he may have pulled a few strings to ensure he wasn't in the frame for the murder.

So I guess it's a matter of glass half full, glass half empty.

I see your point, and I agree that if Mccarthy was found to have lied to the police about the key, then that would have been far more suspicious.
But because he needed a pickaxe, it's clear that he must have told the police that he didn't have a key, knew the key wouldn't appear, and knew that he couldn't be found to have lied to the police as a result.

It's for the reasons above that I believe that declaring he had a key, would have automatically put him on the police radar.

[c.d.]

Precisely correct yes.

I'm suggesting that Mccarthy used the pickaxe because he told the police he didn't have a key.

This then makes the police think that Mccarthy couldn't have entered the room prior to them arriving.

By proxy it then rules him out as the killer.

But IF Mccarthy did enter before the police got there, then it makes his entry into the room all the more suspicious

But again, R.D., a landlord saying he does not have a key is more suspicious than saying he has one.

It is a story that can easily be checked and if it is determined that he does have one he has now lied to the police.

Since it was later determined that the room could be entered from the window or that Mary invited her killer into room it does not rule him out as the killer especially since he knew Mary and interacted with her.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

If Kelly had left the door unlatched when Mary Cox saw Kelly and Blotchy enter the room, then how was the door locked when Mccarthy discovered Kelly?

This could have only been done by the killer after he left.

[The Rookie Detective]

She either had left the door uncatched, as Herlock suggested earlier, or she did enter her room by uncatching the lock through the window and that just wasn't witnessed by Cox. According to Barnett, moving back the catch was quite easy. Or she did have the key, which was then lost, but that doesn't fit the evidence we have.

But the flint lock mechanism surely made the door lock automatically once it was closed?

I may be wrong of course.

[The Rookie Detective]

The conversation of the last few pages flowed from the suggestion that McCarthy likely entered the room before the police got there. But isn't it the case that for that to be true, it must be that either McCarthy had a key or he knew how to open the latch through the open window? To reject both of those possibilities is to reject the possibility of McCarthy entering the room before the police got there, right?

Precisely correct yes.

I'm suggesting that Mccarthy used the pickaxe because he told the police he didn't have a key.

This then makes the police think that Mccarthy couldn't have entered the room prior to them arriving.

By proxy it then rules him out as the killer.

But IF Mccarthy did enter before the police got there, then it makes his entry into the room all the more suspicious

[GBinOz]

The question is, did he enter the room in the time between sending Bowyer to the police and catching him up. Perhaps he was closing his shop. Or perhaps he entered Kelly's room to check that there was nothing there to tie him to "immoral activities", or worse.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The conversation of the last few pages flowed from the suggestion that McCarthy likely entered the room before the police got there. But isn't it the case that for that to be true, it must be that either McCarthy had a key or he knew how to open the latch through the open window? To reject both of those possibilities is to reject the possibility of McCarthy entering the room before the police got there, right?

He didn’t enter the room before the police arrived Lewis.

“When I looked through the window the sight I saw was more ghastly even than I had prepared myself for. On the bed lay the body, while the table was covered with lumps of flesh. Soon Superintendent Arnold arrived, and instructions to burst the door open were given. I at once forced it with a pickaxe and we entered. The sight looked like the work of a devil. The poor woman had been completely disembowelled. Her entrails were cut out and placed on a table. It was these that I had taken to be lumps of flesh. The woman's nose had been cut off, and her face was gashed and mutilated so that she was quite beyond recognition. Both her breasts, too, had been cut clean away and placed by her side. Her liver and other organs were on the table. I had heard a great deal about the Whitechapel murders, but I had never expected to see such a sight. The body was covered with blood and so was the bed. The whole scene is more than I can discribe [sic]. I hope I may never see such a sight again.”


Originally posted by Kattrup.

[FrankO]

So how did Kelly get into her room as witnessed by Mary Cox?

She either had left the door uncatched, as Herlock suggested earlier, or she did enter her room by uncatching the lock through the window and that just wasn't witnessed by Cox. According to Barnett, moving back the catch was quite easy. Or she did have the key, which was then lost, but that doesn't fit the evidence we have.