Afternoon or Evening?

[Wickerman]

There are two instances that come to mind where some have voiced concerns over the statements of witnesses when they have used the term 'afternoon', where we think 'evening' is to be expected. This assumption has raised questions about the reliability of the statements attributed to these witnesses.

In the first example we have the words of Constable Robinson when he arrested Eddowes for being drunk.

City-constable Lewis Robinson, 931, deposed: At half-past eight, on the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, while on duty in High-street, Aldgate, I saw a crowd of persons outside No. 29, surrounding a woman whom I have since recognised as the deceased........With the aid of a fellow-constable I took her to Bishopsgate Police-station.

To which the witness John Kelly told the court:
I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon. An old woman who works in then lane told me she saw her in the hands of the police.

Questions have been raised about John Kelly's claim, that he was either mistaken, or lying, as "half-past eight" is not the "afternoon", it is the evening.

Likewise, Bowyer, on being asked by the Coroner when he last saw Mary Kelly alive, he replied:
"On Wednesday afternoon, in the court, when I spoke to her."

Yet, Bowyer is quoted in the press that he saw Mary Wednesday night:
"Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer."
Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.

Once again the issue has cause concerns that Bowyer was either mistaken, or lying, as "afternoon" and "night" (evening?), are clearly different times of day.

What has apparently gone unnoticed is that in 19th century terminology, "afternoon" and "evening" were interchangeable terms.

Examples of the use of "afternoon", where today we would expect to read "evening", or "night", are readily available in the newspapers all through the 19th century.

Here we read, "eight o'clock in the afternoon".




And again, "half-past eight o'clock on the afternoon".




And again, "at eight o'clock yesterday afternoon".




Timetables for High Water at London Bridge advise, "Afternoon, 16 min past 8" or "31 min past 9.".




There are literally hundreds of examples available, those I selected range from the 1840's through to the 1890's.

There is no cause to doubt the words of these witnesses. The failing, if any, is our understanding of terminology which has gone out of fashion.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Wickerman,

It seems they were using the term literally to mean after noon (p.m.). Evening is a somewhat subjective term, suggesting the onset of night time, which might vary with the time of year. There are probably also examples of the use of 'forenoon' (a.m.) which might support this.

MrB

[Sally]

Afternoon has always been flexible in terms of absolute time, unlike noon, which is not. It's literally after noon so it can be any time before evening; except [for example] when it means after the midday meal and before the evening meal - it really depends on who makes the definition and how.

When you think about it, the same still applies - when is afternoon? I'd imagine the contexts in which 8 or 9pm could still be afternoon today are limited; but what do I know?

When does evening fall? That depends, as you've discovered. Most commonly it's when the light fades; but what happens if you live in a place where the summer months bring 22 hours of daylight and the winter 22 hours of darkness? Where does afternoon fall then?

It depends, again, on who makes the definition and in what context. Your example of morning and afternoon tides, for example, is probably fixed by a terminology that only encompasses morning and afternoon, regardless of the season.

I think it's useful to draw attention to the flexible properties of afternoon though; since one person's afternoon may be another's evening or night.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To working class peasants like me, Jon, afternoon has always meant between 12-5; evening 5-10; night after 10.

There's room for manoeuvre in there by an hour or so, but by and large these times will have been what people meant, as being from the North East it's an isolated part of the country and old habits die hard. Those times are about right, I reckon.

Having said that, it possibly depends upon the time of the year and whether or not the sun is shining, because thinking about it I've heard "8 in the evening" in July, and "8 at night" in November.

[GUT]

G'day Fleetwood Mac

To working class peasants like me, Jon, afternoon has always meant between 12-5; evening 5-10; night after 10.

There's room for manoeuvre in there by an hour or so, but by and large these times will have been what people meant, as being from the North East it's an isolated part of the country and old habits die hard. Those times are about right, I reckon.

Having said that, it possibly depends upon the time of the year and whether or not the sun is shining, because thinking about it I've heard "8 in the evening" in July, and "8 at night" in November.

Here most people consider night as once ir gets dark so somewhere between 5:30 and about 8:00 but that s today. What I am getting at is that it varies from people to people and based on what Jon posted it has varied over time.

[GUT]

G'day Jon

There are two instances that come to mind where some have voiced concerns over the statements of witnesses when they have used the term 'afternoon', where we think 'evening' is to be expected. This assumption has raised questions about the reliability of the statements attributed to these witnesses.

In the first example we have the words of Constable Robinson when he arrested Eddowes for being drunk.

City-constable Lewis Robinson, 931, deposed: At half-past eight, on the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, while on duty in High-street, Aldgate, I saw a crowd of persons outside No. 29, surrounding a woman whom I have since recognised as the deceased........With the aid of a fellow-constable I took her to Bishopsgate Police-station.

To which the witness John Kelly told the court:
I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon. An old woman who works in then lane told me she saw her in the hands of the police.

Questions have been raised about John Kelly's claim, that he was either mistaken, or lying, as "half-past eight" is not the "afternoon", it is the evening.

Likewise, Bowyer, on being asked by the Coroner when he last saw Mary Kelly alive, he replied:
"On Wednesday afternoon, in the court, when I spoke to her."

Yet, Bowyer is quoted in the press that he saw Mary Wednesday night:
"Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer."
Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.

Once again the issue has cause concerns that Bowyer was either mistaken, or lying, as "afternoon" and "night" (evening?), are clearly different times of day.

What has apparently gone unnoticed is that in 19th century terminology, "afternoon" and "evening" were interchangeable terms.

Examples of the use of "afternoon", where today we would expect to read "evening", or "night", are readily available in the newspapers all through the 19th century.

Here we read, "eight o'clock in the afternoon".




And again, "half-past eight o'clock on the afternoon".




And again, "at eight o'clock yesterday afternoon".




Timetables for High Water at London Bridge advise, "Afternoon, 16 min past 8" or "31 min past 9.".




There are literally hundreds of examples available, those I selected range from the 1840's through to the 1890's.

There is no cause to doubt the words of these witnesses. The failing, if any, is our understanding of terminology which has gone out of fashion.

Great Find Jon thanks for sharing.