Long/Darrell?

[Herlock Sholmes]

As I got no response to my question/request on the other thread I thought that I’d start a dedicated thread. And what better way than to repeat another unanswered question…..asked on here 15 years by the late Martin Fido.

”…..I wonder whether any of the genealogically or directory-skilled researchers could explain why Mrs Long was also Mrs Darrell?

Martin F

[Lewis C]

This isn't much, but maybe it's better than nothing. In Wolf Vanderlinden's dissertation about the Chapman murder, he said, "Her name was given in the newspapers as Mrs. Durrell, some reports stated Darrell, but she identified herself at the inquest as Mrs. Elizabeth Long. This is yet another example of a woman who had more than one name, as had the victim, which can be accounted for by the vagaries of East End marital relationships."

https://casebook.org/dissertations/rn-doubt.html

[Wickerman]

As I got no response to my question/request on the other thread I thought that I’d start a dedicated thread. And what better way than to repeat another unanswered question…..asked on here 15 years by the late Martin Fido.

”…..I wonder whether any of the genealogically or directory-skilled researchers could explain why Mrs Long was also Mrs Darrell?

Martin F

Wayback, research was done on Mrs Long, I remember we found more than one potential address. Just off the top of my head, some papers had Church Row, others had Church Street? There's maybe two potential candidates in Whitechapel, but the one most favoured is up in Bethnal Green. The ongoing problem with finding tenants is they are only recorded once every decade. I don't recall her ever being found, under Durrel/Darrel or Long.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was going to check all of the newspaper reports on here but I haven’t had time today but obviously there are others too. The point that stands out is……”they disappeared very suddenly.” It’s perhaps also a little strange, if she was trying to hide her real name from publicity, that she would give one name to the papers and one to the inquest (assuming that at least one of them was her real name of course)

That they were one and the same has to be a likely possibility of course but is it a certainty? It can’t be impossible that a second woman saw the same couple. Can it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wayback, research was done on Mrs Long, I remember we found more than one potential address. Just off the top of my head, some papers had Church Row, others had Church Street? There's maybe two potential candidates in Whitechapel, but the one most favoured is up in Bethnal Green. The ongoing problem with finding tenants is they are only recorded once every decade. I don't recall her ever being found, under Durrel/Darrel or Long.

Hi Wick,

I just got this in a pm from Jose over on JTRForums.

“in 1888, Elizabeth (née Haley; later Clark) lived with her husband James Elias Long at 3 Church Row, today's St Matthew's Row.”

[Lewis C]

Hi Wick,

I just got this in a pm from Jose over on JTRForums.

“in 1888, Elizabeth (née Haley; later Clark) lived with her husband James Elias Long at 3 Church Row, today's St Matthew's Row.”

So that's saying that Haley was her maiden name, and she married a man named Clark either before or after marrying James Long, right?

[Herlock Sholmes]

So that's saying that Haley was her maiden name, and she married a man named Clark either before or after marrying James Long, right?

That’s seems to be the case Lewis. This is from Jose’s research of course.

[Lewis C]

[Herlock Sholmes]

It looks like they were one and the same. Debra Arif has just posted this:

“A few years ago Robert Linford posted about a James Long and his wife Elizabeth living at Blythe Street Bethnal Green in 1891. James was born c1843 and Elizabeth c1841, both in Bethnal Green. They were both listed as cart minders.”

I added this:

The Star 12th Sept

“A woman named Durrell, who minds carts on market morning in Spitalfields Market, stated yesterday that, about half-past five o'clock on Saturday morning, she was passing the front door of No. 29, Hanbury-street, when she saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement. She heard the man say, "Will you?" and the woman replied, "Yes." They then disappeared. Mrs. Durrell does not think she could identify the couple.“

Then there’s the “will you” and the “yes.” No ideas where the name Durrell came from though…..yet.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now Jose’s posted an old post from Stewart Evans. They were definitely one and the same.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-complete-a-to-z-2010/10657-the-a-to-z-2010-discussion-thread-2?p=141006#post141006

[Wickerman]

It looks like they were one and the same. Debra Arif has just posted this:

“A few years ago Robert Linford posted about a James Long and his wife Elizabeth living at Blythe Street Bethnal Green in 1891. James was born c1843 and Elizabeth c1841, both in Bethnal Green. They were both listed as cart minders.”

I added this:

The Star 12th Sept

“A woman named Durrell, who minds carts on market morning in Spitalfields Market, stated yesterday that, about half-past five o'clock on Saturday morning, she was passing the front door of No. 29, Hanbury-street, when she saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement. She heard the man say, "Will you?" and the woman replied, "Yes." They then disappeared. Mrs. Durrell does not think she could identify the couple.“

Then there’s the “will you” and the “yes.” No ideas where the name Durrell came from though…..yet.

Thankyou for this line Herlock, I was about to ask you "which one?" (to your previous post), as there were seven Church Row's in London, but yes the one in Bethnal Green was always the favourite.

[Wickerman]

Now Jose’s posted an old post from Stewart Evans. They were definitely one and the same.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...006#post141006

We may wonder why the police note has Mrs Long at 32 Church Street?

[Debra A]

It looks like they were one and the same. Debra Arif has just posted this:

“A few years ago Robert Linford posted about a James Long and his wife Elizabeth living at Blythe Street Bethnal Green in 1891. James was born c1843 and Elizabeth c1841, both in Bethnal Green. They were both listed as cart minders.”

I added this:

The Star 12th Sept

“A woman named Durrell, who minds carts on market morning in Spitalfields Market, stated yesterday that, about half-past five o'clock on Saturday morning, she was passing the front door of No. 29, Hanbury-street, when she saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement. She heard the man say, "Will you?" and the woman replied, "Yes." They then disappeared. Mrs. Durrell does not think she could identify the couple.“

Then there’s the “will you” and the “yes.” No ideas where the name Durrell came from though…..yet.

Hi Michael, the link I made was between the James Elias Long of 3 Church St, Bethnal Green found by Jose, and the James and Elizabeth Long, both cart minders picked up by Robert Linford a good few years ago. Robert picked out this couple because Elizabeth Long/Darrell told the press that she was maried to a cart minder named James and in this 1891 census entry both James and Elizabeth Long were described as cart minders but they were living at 39 Blythe Street Bethnal Green at that time. I suspected Jose and Robert's James Long may be the same man and the 1892 electoral register confirmed that James Elias Long was indeed listed in 1892 at Blythe St Bethnal Green.

The problem has always been finding a Long/ Darrell/Durrell link in the records and I have suggested on JTR forums that perhaps the Elizabeth Clark who married James Elias Long (noted by Jose) died before 1888 and James Elias began living with a woman named Elizabeth Durrall/Darrell but the pair never married so there is no document to show a Long/Darrell connection.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Michael, the link I made was between the James Elias Long of 3 Church St, Bethnal Green found by Jose, and the James and Elizabeth Long, both cart minders picked up by Robert Linford a good few years ago. Robert picked out this couple because Elizabeth Long/Darrell told the press that she was maried to a cart minder named James and in this 1891 census entry both James and Elizabeth Long were described as cart minders but they were living at 39 Blythe Street Bethnal Green at that time. I suspected Jose and Robert's James Long may be the same man and the 1892 electoral register confirmed that James Elias Long was indeed listed in 1892 at Blythe St Bethnal Green.

The problem has always been finding a Long/ Darrell/Durrell link in the records and I have suggested on JTR forums that perhaps the Elizabeth Clark who married James Elias Long (noted by Jose) died before 1888 and James Elias began living with a woman named Elizabeth Durrall/Darrell but the pair never married so there is no document to show a Long/Darrell connection.

Hi Debs,

I wonder if the fact that the police mentioned her as having an alias might mean that she was already known to them in some way? If she did have some kind of ‘shady’ past I suppose that she could simply have plucked the name pretty much out of thin air? It just seems a little strange that she would give a different name to some of the Press and at the inquest? Is this one of those issues that we’re unlikely to ever get to the bottom of?

[Debra A]

I think I found where the name Durrell originates. I have posted this on JTR forums but also posting here;

In 1861 at Church Street Bethnal Green James Elias Long was living with his parents, James Todd Long, aged 50, a bricklayer born in Whitechapel and his mother Sarah, aged 42, a silk weaver born Spitalfields. Sarah's maiden name was Kirby as shown by the GRO birth registration for James Elias Long in 1845.
Also at the same address on Church Street are these people:

James Durrell head married 38 Cart Minder born Bethnal Green
Catherine Durell wife married 33 tailoress born Stepney
Susan daughter 8 born Mile End

I'm sure most people can guess what happened next?

James Todd Long (James Elias's father) died in 1866 and Catherine Durrell, spouse of James Durrell cart minder of the same address in Church Street had also died in 1865. [Catherine Durrell Church Street buried 29 October 186 aged 39 years City of London and Tower Hamlets Cemetery]

Widow Sarah Long 49, and widower James Durrell 47, married each other on 23 July 1866 at St Dunstan and All Saints Stepney. Both were living at Edward Street. Sarah's father was listed as William Kirby, a weaver

So, James Elias Long's mother was now Mrs Durrell in 1866, James Elias Long was 21 at the time his mother remarried but to me (anyone else?) it must be assumed that James Elias Long may have taken on the surname of his new mother's husband on some occassions and his wife Elizabeth must have too? Even though he wasn't a child when his mother remarried.