The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think so.

Do you think Israel Schwartz gave the police his real name, or a pseudonym?

Why do you think modern researchers have had so much trouble identifying Israel Schwartz in the records?

[Herlock Sholmes]

In response to the recent comments on Witness Testimony: Albert Cadosche

I would point out that BS Man was described by Schwartz as both broad-shouldered and stout.

That is obviously not a description of someone who merely looks bigger than he is because of the clothing he is wearing.

Do you not accept that someone can look bulkier than they actually are when they wear layers of clothing? I’d have thought this a fairly standard point and to be honest I’m rather surprised to hear it disputed.

The idea that he could have been Jewish is far-fetched.

Neither Abberline nor Schwartz considered it and there was nothing to indicate that BS was an immigrant.

Don’t you think that we should be wary of making assumptions? I’m not aware of any instance of Abberline mentioning the point or even implying that he had an opinion on it. Likewise Schwartz.

Contemporaneous commentators noted the very low incidence of public displays of drunkenness among Jews; physical attacks by Jews on women in the street were practically unheard of.

And I’d say that in the 1970’s and early 1980’s there was no incidents of Yorkshire men attacking women with ball pein hammers and yet Peter Sutcliffe was a Yorkshire man. Generalities really get us nowhere.

It was unheard of for Jews to shout anti-Jewish insults as fellow Jews passed by in the street.

Perhaps you could provide us with the evidence that you have discovered which supports that please?

On the other hand, contemporaneous commentators noted that it was common for Gentiles to make anti-Jewish comments as Jews passed them by in the street.

And no one has disputed this as far as I’m aware. But we have seen a documented incident of the word being directed at a Jew by a Jew. How likely would you suggest that it might have been that this was an entirely isolated incident and could you perhaps explain how you arrived at that conclusion please?

Several posters have claimed that Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished.

How then could Abberline tell that Schwartz had a strong Jewish appearance?

Simply because some Jews clearly did have a strong Jewish appearance….like Schwartz, whilst some didn’t…like the numerous ones that we provided photographs of on a previous thread.

How did the anti-Semites know whom to direct their comments at when someone passed them by in the street?

Did they merely guess?

Or did they merely hurl those insults at those Jews that had an obviously Jewish look. Those that didn’t look Jewish would have escaped the insults.

I pointed out that the man with the pipe was estimated by Schwartz to be 5 ft 11 ins, whereas Polish Jewish men were on average just over 5 ft 3 ins.

And I pointed out similar evidence where the average height of the same group of men was recorded at 5’6.” I also pointed out that to arrive at an average a range of heights would have been recorded….some taller some shorter. No matter what ethnicity we look at an example of a tall person can hardly be considered unlikely. As I also said in a previous post, I’m 4 inches taller than the average and my brother is 6 inches taller. In comparison Pipeman would only gave been 5 inches above the average. We also have to take into consideration that Schwartz didn’t measure the man’s height; he merely estimated it. Surely you can allow for the possibility that Pipeman might even have been 5’9” for example? I’m sure that you wouldn’t claim that a man could be accurate to 2 inches when estimating the height of a man that he’d seen briefly, under stressful circumstances across a street?

Responses to these points are along the lines that BS could have been a special case of a Polish Jew whose accent was not detectable and who unusually got drunk in public and unusually attacked women in the street, and who shouted an anti-Semitic insult as a person who was identifiably Jewish passed by, even though it was unheard of for a Jewish person to do so, and that Pipe Man was an unusually tall Jew.

All these suggestions are being made even though they run counter to everything that is known.

If, as so many here have suggested, Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished by sight, how could BS discern that Schwartz was Jewish or, if he directed the insult at Pipe Man, what made him think that a man who was 5 ft 11 ins tall and smoking a pipe was Jewish?

I’d suggest again that we should be cautious about generalisations. No one, as far as I’m aware, is claiming that no Jewish people could be recognised by appearance. Only that not all Jews could be recognised by their appearance.

I do agree that BS man and Pipeman were likely to have been gentiles though, but we shouldn’t assume it as a certainty.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Jews to make antisemitic remarks as fellow Jews passed them in the street.

Similarly, I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Polish Jews to attack Gentile women in Whitechapel.

I did issue a challenge for someone to come up with a single instance of that having happened.

No one ever has.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Do you think Israel Schwartz gave the police his real name, or a pseudonym?

Why do you think modern researchers have had so much trouble identifying Israel Schwartz in the records?

Why do you think Israel Schwartz went to the police if he was not who he claimed to be?

Why would he have gone to the police if he had some guilty secret?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Jews to make antisemitic remarks as fellow Jews passed them in the street.

Then I’d have to ask how you can know this considering the absence of evidence for it?

Similarly, I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Polish Jews to attack Gentile women in Whitechapel.

Then I’d have to ask how you can know this considering the absence of evidence for it?

I did issue a challenge for someone to come up with a single instance of that having happened.

No one ever has.

But no one is claiming that this was a common occurrence. Serial murder isn’t a common occurrence. Many things happen that don’t make the newspapers.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

There is an absence of evidence that something did happen, not that something did not happen!

I do not need to prove that there is no record of Polish Jewish men attacking gentile women in the East End of London.

It is for someone to find an instance of that having happened.

Similarly, I do not need to prove that there is no record of a Jewish serial killer in the history of British crime or that there is no record of a Polish Jewish serial killer anywhere.

It is for others to find one.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There’s no need for anyone to do that because, as I said before, most things that occur don’t make the newspapers. The same is the case even today with a massively increased media.

I’ll leave it as it stands before we begin to go around in circles. It’s clear that we disagree. The point isn’t worth pursuing.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Kosminski's dog-walking offence made it into the newspapers, and Aaron Abrahams' assault made it, and even the use of Lipski as an insult, but we cannot expect to see a report of a Polish Jew assaulting a Gentile woman?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve already said that I have no interest in pursuing the point. I’m done.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

The Church Lane man is certainly an intriguing character. Sadly, there's very little to go on. Assuming the timings are correct (!) there's a very narrow window for him to reach Mitre Square and pick up Kate. One to ponder at any rate.

How narrow would the timing be considering we know that such things were often estimates? That is rather disappointing that nothing further has been unearthed as yet in regards that sighting. It certainly seems one that could have bore some fruit. I suppose it could be that the Police did check it out and that has now been lost to history which is such a pity.

[Fiver]

I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Jews to make antisemitic remarks as fellow Jews passed them in the street.

Similarly, I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Polish Jews to attack Gentile women in Whitechapel.

I did issue a challenge for someone to come up with a single instance of that having happened.

No one ever has.

No one needs to provide evidence of Jewish violence towards Gentiles, because it has no bearing on whether the Ripper was Jewish.

Evidence has already been provided of Jews calling other Jews "Lipski".

[Fiver]

Kosminski's dog-walking offence made it into the newspapers, and Aaron Abrahams' assault made it, and even the use of Lipski as an insult, but we cannot expect to see a report of a Polish Jew assaulting a Gentile woman?

All that proves is that it was a slow news day when Kosminski was charged with having an unmuzzled dog.

Emma Smith was attacked, but didn't report it to the police and resisted even being taken to the hospital. A lot of crime goes unreported, especially sexual assault.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No one needs to provide evidence of Jewish violence towards Gentiles, because it has no bearing on whether the Ripper was Jewish.

I think that is wrong.

There were similar accusations on the European continent and in Imperial Russia that Jews were responsible for notorious murders there, on the ground that they were in the habit of committing such violent murders, always involving mutilation, and they were similarly unfounded.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why do you think Israel Schwartz went to the police if he was not who he claimed to be?

Why would he have gone to the police if he had some guilty secret?

Imagine if everything was the same, except that the man who went to Leman St on the evening following the murder, gave the name Leon Goldstein. So, a member of the club does nothing about an assault on a woman at the gateway leading to the side door of the club. He implicates a gentile as being the probable murderer and waits many hours to go to the police. At least 'Israel Schwartz' had an excuse for hesitating to go to the police - the poor chap was terribly frightened! Leon Goldstein couldn't use that excuse.

There is another big problem with Schwartz using his real name. Wess had already told the Echo reporter that a chase had occurred down Fairclough St at about 12:45, and that he had been told the name of the man who did the chasing, that is, Pipeman. How would it look if Goldstein said he was the man being chased? How could it be that Wess was informed of Pipeman's name and knew this man was not a club member, but by the time he is talking to the Echo that afternoon, he still is not aware that the man he was chasing was Goldstein, someone he surely knew personally?

Having decided to go to the police, Leon Goldstein had to go using a pseudonym. Why this decision was made is a further debate, but the theory that Goldstein used a pseudonym when he went to the police fits well with the evidence.

[Wickerman]

Didn't you suggest Goldstein went to police twice, once as Schwartz, then as Goldstein, and the police didin't recognize the same man?
Isn't that making things more complicated?