The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I find it intriguing that Swanson makes no mention of the pub on the corner (Nelson), Pipeman is just 'there', somewhere.
We should keep in mind someone changed the pipe (police statement), into a knife (press statement).
I don't think we can rule out the press being responsible for this to make the story more exciting. So if they did, what else did they insert?
Perhaps they placed Pipeman at the Nelson, and they had him coming out of a door, or doorway?
At the end of the day, can we trust the press version of his statement?

I find the police account more exciting, and I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that some devious character on the street would be capable of lighting up and then pursuing a man for his money and valuable items, while brandishing a knife. The pipe versus knife thing is a false dichotomy.

I agree that Pipe & Knifeman is just 'there', and the Nelson on the corner is an irrelevant distraction, but Swanson's report suggests that that somewhere can be narrowed to being - when he is first spotted - on the school side and north (closer to Commercial Rd) than Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The handkerchief was stained with fruit, it was thought to be blood, but turned out to be fruit stains.
I can't think of another reason for her holding a piece of paper in her fingers unless it was to keep her fingers dry, or unstained.

I don't understand why this apparent need to keep her fingers dry required the use of both the handkerchief and a piece of newspaper. Was this piece of paper also found to have fruit stains?

Any grapes would be squashed if the fingers were clenched tight, yes, I agree. Regardless of their condition the doctors say they found no grapes.
But.......if the grapes came out of her hand they would fall between her chest and the wall, in the darkness. Her face & knees were close to the house wall. So everybody in the yard was standing behind her.
Once they come out of her fingers, they fall into darkness, and out of sight of everyone, until the body is moved As they were black then they were likely trodden into the mud and the blood as they gather round to lift the body onto the Ambulance, that was about 4:00am.
The yard was swilled down about 5:00am.

I can imagine that occurring (just), but only if there is no grape stalk. I can't imagine a stalk next to the wall being missed. Reid went over the area very carefully.

I wonder how obvious this piece of paper in her right hand was? For some reason Abraham Herschburg seems to have missed it ...

In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

Presumably he meant the left hand. Can we be 100% sure, though?

Blackwell: I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view.

Yet Herschburg was able to count the cachous? I find that hard to believe. Let's go back to Diemschitz (to the press) ...

Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes.

Perhaps Diemschitz misperceived the contents of her left hand, which was on the ground and probably in mud. I suggest that Diemschitz could see 'sweetmeats' clearly, just as Herschburg did, but that these were in her right hand. Her left hand also held cachous in a piece of paper. At some point the cachous in the right hand fell out, perhaps when this hand got smeared with blood.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi LC,

Pipeman "came out of the doorway of a public house a few doors off".

A doorway is different to a door. It is a small sheltered enclosure just outside the door that would present a prefect refuge for a pipe smoker to attend to the re-lighting of his pipe out of the wind. He could have been thus engaged when he heard the dispute at the gateway and stepped out to see what was going on.

Cheers, George

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/4963-steps-to-the-nelson?p=197010#post197010

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NW,

Packer was in the business of selling fruit and vegetables from his little shop. Why would he see selling some grapes to a customer as anything unusual, or in any way related to the murder. He probably thought nothing of it until the grapes became a focal point afterwards.

Cheers, George

Had the couple gone and briefly stood outside gates of the yard, before disappearing from his view, Packer should have been able to put 2 and 2 together, before the 2 detectives came along. Had the man with the appearance of a clerk he served, been the same man as described by Marshall, he would be correct in saying he did not see anything unusual.

Le Grand and Batchelor may have heard stories about grapes, and decided that with a little persuasion of Mathew Packer, they could capitalise on the situation.

[The Rookie Detective]

What happens when you squash Cachous?


Do they stain like grapes?


Could the stains on the handkerchief have come from the cachous and NOT grapes?


RD

[DJA]

Hi LC,

Pipeman "came out of the doorway of a public house a few doors off".

A doorway is different to a door. It is a small sheltered enclosure just outside the door that would present a prefect refuge for a pipe smoker to attend to the re-lighting of his pipe out of the wind. He could have been thus engaged when he heard the dispute at the gateway and stepped out to see what was going on.

Cheers, George

[Lewis C]

Comments from Swanson and Abberline considered together, suggest that the second man walked then ran, but didn't run as far as the railway arch. A man fleeing in fear would run initially before slowing to a walk, would he not? A man who decided to move on would not run at all. That leaves your third possibility - the man was pursuing Schwartz with intent. Given Schwartz, by his own account, is only guilty of leaving a woman in distress to her own devices, what could be the motivation for the second man's pursuit? I would suggest - money.

Yes, given Abberline's comments, it doesn't sound like Pipe Man was just moving on. Maybe Pipe Man did intend to mug Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What happens when you squash Cachous?


Do they stain like grapes?


Could the stains on the handkerchief have come from the cachous and NOT grapes?


RD

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, given Abberline's comments, it doesn't sound like Pipe Man was just moving on. Maybe Pipe Man did intend to mug Schwartz.

For money or possessions on him, or both. Perhaps, having been out since the previous evening, Schwartz carried a bag.

[The Rookie Detective]

Just a little observation regarding the Cachous.


Stride was holding the packet between her thumb and forefinger.

That suggests that before her throat was cut, Stride had either just TAKEN the Cachous out of her own pocket OR had just TAKEN the packet from her killer.

In other words, she wasn't carrying the Cachous in her HAND, just between her 2 fingers.

In other words; her finger placement implies the motion of her having taken the packet of Cachous between her fingers and therefore the moment she was perhaps distracted and her attention drawn away at the critical moment.


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

Thank you for clearing that up. I was just pondering whether the Cachous could have been squashed and transferred between her hands, but now I know that's unlikely.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

Sweeten the breath?

I thought they were instead used in the same way as we would use fresh mints to take away bad tastes from our mouth.

I.e. a cigarette, a dodgy grape, another kisser's bad breath..

But to "sweeten the breath" gives us perhaps a whole new outlook on what may have happened...




RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Just a little observation regarding the Cachous.


Stride was holding the packet between her thumb and forefinger.

That suggests that before her throat was cut, Stride had either just TAKEN the Cachous out of her own pocket OR had just TAKEN the packet from her killer.

In other words, she wasn't carrying the Cachous in her HAND, just between her 2 fingers.

In other words; her finger placement implies the motion of her having taken the packet of Cachous between her fingers and therefore the moment she was perhaps distracted and her attention drawn away at the critical moment.


RD

...And HOW did she not drop them if they were BETWEEN her thumb and forefinger?

I can understand her not dropping them as part of an involuntary brain reaction...

but just between her thumb and forefinger...

How did she not drop them?

How is that physically possible?


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Interesting take on the Stride murder.

The bruises on the left cheek and temple in particular.


Consistent with her being thrown to the ground and her head pushed down while her throat was cut


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

I have another theory regarding those Cachou...


RD