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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi Jon,

    I have a recollection of someone saying that the police checked Goldstein's presence at the Spectacle. Strangely enough, I thought it was you. You are the one that usually has this type of obscure information at his fingertips.

    Cheers, George
    Nothing like being put on the spot?

    I honestly don't recall reading that the police checked his story.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
      Ah no...just to clarify my meaning from my previous post (as I feel it was misinterpreted; my fault entirely)

      So...

      the Schwartz "incident" NEVER happened...BUT Goldstein (who was Schwartz) was seen by Mortimer at the exact same moment that Goldstein looked towards the club and saw the attack at 1am.
      Goldstein looked towards the club AND WITNESSED the murder OR the murderer in the process of attacking Stride in the gateway and THEN he hurried off around the corner, all of which Mortimer witnessed. Her focus was on watching Goldstein and not on the murder being committed inside the gateway out of her viewpoint.

      Goldstein then approached Wess to say he had witnessed a CLUB MEMBER attack Stride and Wess told him to go to the police to clear his name AND to create a story to take the focus away from the club. Wess may have given Goldstein a "If you take the club down, then you'll go down with it by being implicated in the murder" scenario.

      BUT because Goldstein witnessed Stride being attacked at 1am and he happened to be passing, he knew that he would be implicated and so he had to go to the police as Schwartz; a stereotypical looking Jew who was conveniently unknown to the club.

      Goldstein as Schwartz then makes up a story of BS man and Pipeman (who never existed) attacking Stride at 12.45am.

      But the reason wy nobody saw anything AT 12.45am is because nothing happened UNTIL 1am.

      This means that Stride was standing inside the gateway EITHER alone of WITH her killer out of sight throughout the ordeal.

      THe last GENUINE sighting was that made by PC Smith around 12.35am-12.40am, the same time that EAGLE returned to the club. BUT because the front door was locked, he had to use the side door, so he must have SEEN Stride as he went through the yard.
      He SAID he DIDN'T see her because he may have missed her in the darkness. But that can't be true, because she was still alive at the time Eagle returned. The only way he could have missed her; is if she was already dead, and that wasn't the case. On that basis he must have walked past her.

      BUT because she was later murdered, he can't tell the police he spoke to a known prostitute and make that public, because he had a girlfriend/fiancee.
      I can't imagine any guy telling his fiancee... "yes, I chatted to that prostitute, but I promise I didn't kill her, even though someone did cut her throat shortly after I spoke to her"
      Eagle covered his own back and said he didn't see her.

      Now the man seen by PC Smith had to have gone somewhere BUT because he was seen with her around 20 minutes BEFORE she was murdered at 1am, then we have several possible scenarios...and so parcelman was either...

      Eagle, who spoke to her, was witnessed by PC Smith and then he innocently returned to the club with his parcel full of cigarettes to give to his comrades etc...

      Another member of the club who then innocently went back into the club after having had a breather from the smoke (Lave?)
      Another member of the club who had enticed her into the yard and was with her in the darkness for 20 minutes before killing her.
      A non-member of the club who enticed her into the darkness at some point over the 20 minutes and then killed her just as Goldstein walked past.

      The reason why Parcelman has remained a key suspect has been down to the assault alleged to have taken place at 12.45am (according to Schwartz)

      BUT because the entire incident never happened and NOTHING HAPPENED UNTIL 1am when the killer; who was already standing with her in the darkness, then attacked her and cut her throat at the same location where she was later found, it makes Parcelman less of a suspect UNLESS he spent 20 minutes with her FROM the time Pc Smith saw him, to the point of the attack at 1am

      And so the likes of BS man and Pipeman NEVER existed. The theatrical assault on Stride NEVER HAPPENED.

      BUT crucially... Goldstein DID witness the moment that Stride was attacked in the dark. He saw a man killing her and then fled. Mortimer confirms seeing Goldstein walking hurriedly and that action of walking hurriedly away occurred AFTER GOLDSTEIN looked towards the club.

      The murder of Stride was relatively silent and was only seen AND?OR heard by Goldstein who then looked towards the club/gateway and THEN hurriedly walked away.

      The reason WHY Goldstein then came forward is because of the pressure he faced from the club AND because he KNEW that by saying he saw the attack, he could also then have been perceived as the killer, and so THAT is the reason why the 12.45am attack was then created to

      A- change the time of the killing/assault from 1am to 12.45am
      B- suggest that Stride was assaulted before Goldstein arrived
      C- make it appear that someone NOT connected with the club approached Stride from the north and then attacked her
      D- add in a suspicious-looking Pipeman who was observing the attack and was an accomplice NOT attached to the club.
      E- suggest that 2 men not involved with the club were behind the assault
      F- make it appear that there nobody from the club had any connection to the attack


      BUT because every good lie requires elements of TRUTH to come across as genuine, Goldstein used elements of what he DID see and hear at 1am when Stride was actually being murdered and so elements of the story he used as Schwartz DID bear some similarities to the truth of what did actually happen.

      But Goldstein needed a clincher, something to seal the deal and convince the police...and what better way to fool the police, than to play the race card.

      By stating that BS man shouted LIPSKI to his accomplice, it immediately draws focus away from it being a member of the club, because a verbal anti-Jewish slur could not have conceivably been made by a Jew.

      But here's the thing; nobody ever shouted LIPSKI, because BS man and Pipeman were imaginary and Schwartz aka Goldstein needed something alarming to make the police believe that nobody from the club could have been involved.

      Now Goldstein may have seen very little of the murder, but he certainly heard it, because that's what drew his focus to look toward the club.

      And so IMO the killer was a member of the club, could have been parcelman IF he spent 20 minutes with her in the dark after PC Smith saw him, but was most likely to have been Joseph Lave, who gave mixed timings.

      I therefore believe that THIS is what happened...

      Having spoken to Stride briefly at 12.40am, Eagle goes back into the club and opens his parcel full of cigarettes to share with his comrades. They light up and Eagle is overheard by Lave telling another man (Strides lover?) that Stride is waiting for him outside.
      Lave overhears this...but he is filled with an inner rage...and so he decides to go outside of the club to get some "fresh air." ...via his own room at the club to pick up a knife and some cachous...just in case...
      A man on the run from the USA (via Russia) and taking refuge in the only place that would have taken him.
      He's a transient man for a reason.
      At 12.50am he comes out of the club and sees Stride waiting outside the club door.
      She is wet from the rain but remains outside because her lover has told her that Non-Jews entering the club is frowned upon etc..
      Lave then sparks up conversation with her.
      Stride has been waiting for her lover to come out of the club, the russian/german Jew seen earlier outside the Bricklayer's Arms?...
      Lave knows the man and is a little jealous and he knows that Stride is a woman who solicits for sex... and he wants to try his luck with her too...but not for sex, for power.
      Lave is charming. He comments on her dress, her flowers...and he briefly asks her about her lover...and by proxy, sex.
      (men often use the ruse of getting a woman to openly talk about sex, as a way of feeling power and control over a woman. It can be a thrill for some men)

      Over the next 5 minutes they chat and Stride is made to feel at ease.

      At 12.56am he decides to make his move. He can't be outside the club too long. (he went to his room at 12.45am and left the club at 12.50am)

      Stride is charmed by him, but at the same time is worried about being seen and doesn't want her lover to taste the cigarette on her breath (her lover being a non-smoker?) Lave tells her not to worry as he has some cachous.
      Lave then uses this and urges her to step into the darkness and he jokes about not wanting her lover to see them either and getting them both in trouble.

      (note that Lave applies a clever reverse psychology technique used here - he later tells the police he needed some fresh air to get away from the smoke, in order to deter from the fact he was a smoker, ergo, he didn't come out of the club for fresh air- he came out TO SMOKE and use the smoking along with the cachous as a ruse to kill Stride)

      At 12.57am he offers her again and she accepts.

      (again note that offering a person a cigarette shortly before their death, is a custom that has been applied in the past. A "last cigar" sceneario.

      I believe that the moment that Stride accepted the cigarette from Lave, is the moment he knew he was going to kill her.


      She EITHER takes a few puffs and it tastes vile OR she smokes properly... BUT EITHER WAY, she needs to get the taste/smell of the cigarette off her breath and so he offers her the cachous that he told her about.

      He watches her as he feels the knife in his pocket.
      As he hands her the Cachous...

      Goldstein is walking down Berner Street

      Mortimer is about to open her door.

      Then...

      As Stride goes to open the bag of cachous she is momentarily distracted. Lave then pulls out his knife, gets her to the floor and then cuts her throat, all in under 10 seconds.

      But at the EXACT MOMENT that Lave brings Stride to the floor, the sound is heard by Goldstein who has walked in front of the gateway. He momentarily looks toward the club side door and sees the figure of a man knelt over Stride and drawing a knife across her throat. Goldstein hurries away SEEN by Mortimer who has just opened her door.
      Lave instinctively looks around to hear (and see?) Goldstein move away and fears he has been seen killing Stride. He stands and goes toward the gateway, but hesitates because he realizes that leaving the scene would put him in the frame.

      And so he instead goes back into the club and manages to go to his room undetected, where he hides the knife? (??) He then remembers the cachous but as he goes to leave his room he hears the commotion outside as Diemshcultz has just entered the yard and he realizes he can't get back to Stride.

      He then gathers his thoughts and blends in undetected.

      The question is...how much did Goldstein actually see?


      So...there's my hypothesis...feedback and obliteration of said hypothesis most welcome...



      RD


      Once again...feedback please?

      It's the first time a hypothesis of mine hasn't been stripped down and logically deconstructed by minds far greater than mine.

      Only NBFN has responded, and that post lacked contextual substance (with respect)

      If my hypothesis can't be debunked and logically discounted, then I'd say that it was a pretty good hypothesis.


      I tend to find that substantial posts are often ignored for 2 reasons; they're a complete joke, ridiculous, and not worth responding to, OR...they're very worthy posts and people don't know how to respond and challenge a hypothesis that explains so much in context with the available knowledge we do have.


      In other words, I'd much prefer to have the discussion, be challenged, be dis-proven, be corrected, be mocked even...but to be ignored for stating what I believe is a very good hypothesis and explanation; is rather frustrating.

      And it's no fun playing table tennis by yourself


      So the narcissist in me would once again like to ask you all...


      Give me some feedback on my rather (ridiculous and/or brilliant) hypothesis above please?


      RD


      "Great minds, don't think alike"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

        Let's suppose your interpretation is correct. What are left with? The Schwartz incident at about 12:45, not being noticed, and then the 'Goldstein incident' about 5 minutes later, which is noticed. The opposite of what we might expect.


        Fanny reported having seen him the day of the murder. It is possible Wess found out about what she had seen before the end of the day. Wess took Goldstein to Leman St at about 10:30pm on Tuesday.
        Do you mean "The opposite of what we might expect" because the Schwartz incident would have been more noticeable and more memorable?

        Even if Wess didn't find out about it then, Mortimer's statement was in the papers on Monday, and I think that at least some papers would have come out in the morning. That would mean Goldstein reported it about 236 after that. That does seem a bit slow.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
          Ah no...just to clarify my meaning from my previous post (as I feel it was misinterpreted; my fault entirely)
          You're saying it was your fault?
          That you were trying to make a point (like Richardson), but for some reason your story, or explanation (like Richardson), was not clear to everyone?
          So it would be unjustified for anyone to accuse you of lying?
          You were not trying to mislead anyone, it was just an honest mistake?
          You agree?

          [I hope you see the point I am trying to make]



          So...

          the Schwartz "incident" NEVER happened...BUT Goldstein (who was Schwartz) was seen by Mortimer at the exact same moment that Goldstein looked towards the club and saw the attack at 1am.
          Goldstein looked towards the club AND WITNESSED the murder OR the murderer in the process of attacking Stride in the gateway and THEN he hurried off around the corner, all of which Mortimer witnessed. Her focus was on watching Goldstein and not on the murder being committed inside the gateway out of her viewpoint.
          When we read Mortimer's account, doesn't it sound to you like Goldstein was on the opposite side of Berner St. to where Mortimer stood?
          She was at her door, right?

          So, she doesn't say he passed within arms reach of her, right under her nose.

          She also doesn't say he looked towards the club (your honest mistake?) , but to be exact, he looked up at the club. Which tends to suggest he looked at the upstairs room where they were singing and dancing, which sounds reasonable.

          Can you imagine how you would have to twist your neck to look up to the first floor from the pavement at ground level while walking passed barely 2 feet away from the building?
          He could very easily have stumbled, or lost his balance, trying to look up at such an acute angle.

          He was walking down the east side, the other side of the road, wasn't he?
          And Schwartz walked down the west side, Mortimer's side, didn't he?


          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

            Do you mean "The opposite of what we might expect" because the Schwartz incident would have been more noticeable and more memorable?

            Even if Wess didn't find out about it then, Mortimer's statement was in the papers on Monday, and I think that at least some papers would have come out in the morning. That would mean Goldstein reported it about 236 after that. That does seem a bit slow.
            Yes, that's what I mean.

            Imagine an alternate reality where Schwartz & co. are heard and seen, and Goldstein is not seen. Then Goldstein comes forward almost immediately - let's say in the evening following the murder, as Schwartz did, and not long after does a press interview - but there are also rumours of a man who saw an assault on the street, just 15 minutes before the body was discovered, although the man's identity is unknown to the police. Then late Tuesday evening, the man (Schwartz), who knew no English and was apprehensive about getting involved in police identifications and other legal matters, is finally persuaded to go to the station and make a statement.

            Things are not as we might expect. We also have to wonder what happened to Schwartz - there seems to be no mention of him beyond 1888.
            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              When we read Mortimer's account, doesn't it sound to you like Goldstein was on the opposite side of Berner St. to where Mortimer stood?
              She was at her door, right?

              So, she doesn't say he passed within arms reach of her, right under her nose.

              She also doesn't say he looked towards the club (your honest mistake?) , but to be exact, he looked up at the club. Which tends to suggest he looked at the upstairs room where they were singing and dancing, which sounds reasonable.

              Can you imagine how you would have to twist your neck to look up to the first floor from the pavement at ground level while walking passed barely 2 feet away from the building?
              He could very easily have stumbled, or lost his balance, trying to look up at such an acute angle.

              He was walking down the east side, the other side of the road, wasn't he?
              And Schwartz walked down the west side, Mortimer's side, didn't he?
              Surely Goldstein initially walked down on the club side, having turned into the street from the direction of Spectacle Alley.

              No doubt it was perfectly clear to Fanny in that dark street, in what precise direction Goldstein was looking. Whatever the case, had there been any noise coming from upstairs, it would have been both an obvious place to look if something unusual caught his ear, and it would be natural for Fanny to suppose that it was the singing that made him look toward the club.

              So, what did make Goldstein look up at/back to/toward the club? Was it a bit of commonplace singing that grabbed this fast-walking man's attention, or something more interesting?
              Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 10-07-2023, 10:24 PM.
              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                Surely Goldstein initially walked down on the club side, having turned into the street from the direction of Spectacle Alley.
                I don't doubt it, Berner St. is plenty long enough for him to cross the street long before he passes Mortimers house.
                I could say the same to you, that "surely" he "went around the corner by the Board School", on the east side?
                The question becomes, at what point did he cross Berner St.?

                No doubt it was perfectly clear to Fanny in that dark street, in what precise direction Goldstein was looking
                I agree, she said "up", so he looked up.

                Whatever the case, had there been any noise coming from upstairs, it would have been both an obvious place to look if something unusual caught his ear, and it would be natural for Fanny to suppose that it was the singing that made him look toward the club.
                So, what did make Goldstein look up at/back to/toward the club? Was it a bit of commonplace singing that grabbed this fast-walking man's attention, or something more interesting?
                The common-place, boring, mundane, everyday singing?

                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                  I don't doubt it, Berner St. is plenty long enough for him to cross the street long before he passes Mortimers house.
                  I could say the same to you, that "surely" he "went around the corner by the Board School", on the east side?
                  The question becomes, at what point did he cross Berner St.?
                  The shortest path would of course be a diagonal. Schwartz didn't feel he needed to cross the road, having seen a woman at the gates, so I see no reason to suppose that Goldstein didn't walk right by Mortimer in her doorway.

                  I agree, she said "up", so he looked up.
                  So, no vagaries of eye-witness accounts or reporting accuracy, on this occasion?

                  The common-place, boring, mundane, everyday singing?
                  Perhaps the singing alerted him to the fact that he was not on Batty St.
                  Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • My point about Goldstein is that you need to imagine he follows the path of Schwartz as he walks down Berner Street.

                    Goldstein walks down the same side of the road as Mortimer's residence and as she opens the door to look down Berner Street she sees Goldstein look towards the club and then hurriedly walk across the road and walk around the corner by the board school.

                    Mortimer witnesses the exact moment that Goldstein witnesses the sound of Stride being murdered in the yard. He then crosses the street as he passes the gateway and then hurriedly walks around the corner.

                    When Goldstein is seen by Mortimer looking up at the club, Goldstein is responding to the audible sound of Stride being murdered.

                    So we have Mortimer witness Goldstein witnessing the murder. This all happens at the SAME TIME.

                    BUT...

                    because Goldstein witnesses the attack on Stride outside the club, he then tells Wess and in order to clear himself from being seen as the killer (and not the witness) AND to save the club, Wess convinces Goldstein to tell the police.

                    BUT
                    ​​​​​
                    the only way that Goldstein can be sure not to implicate himself is to say he saw thr assault on Stride 15 minutes before it actually did...and because he may have been seen, he goes to the station incognito and gives his account as a generic looking Jew called Schwartz.

                    As Schwartz, Goldstein then tells a story of an assault by BS man and his potential accomplice in Pipeman.

                    ​​​​​​BUT Bs Man and Pipeman don't exist because the incident that Schwartz describes is designed to alter the time of the actual murder AND for the assault to be seen as an Anti Jewish attack by someone shouting Lipski and attacking a woman outside the club, caused by a man who approached her from the north.

                    BUT... and here's the crucial thing... Goldsteins story that he tells as Schwartz has elements of TRUTH.

                    Goldstein DID walk down Berner At (like Schwartz)
                    Goldstein DID witness an assault as he got to the gateway (like Schwartz)
                    Goldstein DID cross the road and hurry off (like Schwartz did when he crossed the road)

                    And so when Goldstein tells his story AS SCHWARTZ, he's giving us hints and incorporating elements of what he DID WITNESS as himself (Goldstein)


                    ​​​​​​The 2 prime suspects are Lave and Eagle.

                    Eagle is Parcelman returning with cigarettes for the club members still in the club
                    Lave goes out because he needs fresh air from the cigarette smoke.
                    Goldstein tells the police his bag was full of empty cigarette cases
                    Goldstein AS SCHWARTZ describes a man lighting up (pipeman that he creates)
                    The yard where Stride was murdered had cigar makers who lived there.
                    ​​​​Stride is found with Cachous in her hand...to sweeten her breath from cigarettes?
                    Who gave her the cachous?

                    That's the missing link...

                    The man who gave her the cachous was her killer... but why would he be carrying cachous in the first place?

                    To use for himself

                    A man who needed to get some fresh air perhaps?

                    Mortimer saw Goldstein looking towards the club
                    Goldstein looked towards the club after hearing the attack.
                    He knows it's a club member
                    Wess convinces him to go to the police to save the club and himself
                    Goldstein has to go as Schwartz to create a story.

                    Ultimately... nothing happened in Berner Street at all

                    Until around 1am when Stride was murdered by a man from the club.

                    Goldstein was the key witness but know he would be seen as the killer and so had to go as Schwartz.


                    When you look at all of what I've said, it ALL fits.


                    Except for the Goldstein looked "up" at the club instead of looking "at" the club.

                    If Goldstein looked at or towards the club and Mortimer's statement that he looked up at the club can be explained as the same thing, then Mortimer witnessed the man (Goldstein) who witnessed the murder of Stride.


                    I have been trying to prove myself wrong but

                    IF Goldstein was Schwartz

                    And...

                    Goldstein looked towards the club is the same as looking up at the club...

                    Then I believe my hypothesis covers it all.

                    ​​​​​​BUT..that would then exclude Stride as a ripper victim.

                    And so when Le Grand for involved, he saw an opportunity to push for the murder having been a ripper killing, based on the letters being faked to pedal a double event and for the WVC to justify extorting more reward money.


                    It all fits...unless someone can help me to disprove myself.


                    RD
                    "Great minds, don't think alike"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                      My point about Goldstein is that you need to imagine he follows the path of Schwartz as he walks down Berner Street.

                      Goldstein walks down the same side of the road as Mortimer's residence and as she opens the door to look down Berner Street she sees Goldstein look towards the club and then hurriedly walk across the road and walk around the corner by the board school.

                      Mortimer witnesses the exact moment that Goldstein witnesses the sound of Stride being murdered in the yard. He then crosses the street as he passes the gateway and then hurriedly walks around the corner.

                      When Goldstein is seen by Mortimer looking up at the club, Goldstein is responding to the audible sound of Stride being murdered.

                      So we have Mortimer witness Goldstein witnessing the murder. This all happens at the SAME TIME.

                      BUT...

                      because Goldstein witnesses the attack on Stride outside the club, he then tells Wess and in order to clear himself from being seen as the killer (and not the witness) AND to save the club, Wess convinces Goldstein to tell the police.

                      BUT
                      ​​​​​
                      the only way that Goldstein can be sure not to implicate himself is to say he saw thr assault on Stride 15 minutes before it actually did...and because he may have been seen, he goes to the station incognito and gives his account as a generic looking Jew called Schwartz.

                      As Schwartz, Goldstein then tells a story of an assault by BS man and his potential accomplice in Pipeman.

                      ​​​​​​BUT Bs Man and Pipeman don't exist because the incident that Schwartz describes is designed to alter the time of the actual murder AND for the assault to be seen as an Anti Jewish attack by someone shouting Lipski and attacking a woman outside the club, caused by a man who approached her from the north.

                      BUT... and here's the crucial thing... Goldsteins story that he tells as Schwartz has elements of TRUTH.

                      Goldstein DID walk down Berner At (like Schwartz)
                      Goldstein DID witness an assault as he got to the gateway (like Schwartz)
                      Goldstein DID cross the road and hurry off (like Schwartz did when he crossed the road)

                      And so when Goldstein tells his story AS SCHWARTZ, he's giving us hints and incorporating elements of what he DID WITNESS as himself (Goldstein)


                      ​​​​​​The 2 prime suspects are Lave and Eagle.

                      Eagle is Parcelman returning with cigarettes for the club members still in the club
                      Lave goes out because he needs fresh air from the cigarette smoke.
                      Goldstein tells the police his bag was full of empty cigarette cases
                      Goldstein AS SCHWARTZ describes a man lighting up (pipeman that he creates)
                      The yard where Stride was murdered had cigar makers who lived there.
                      ​​​​Stride is found with Cachous in her hand...to sweeten her breath from cigarettes?
                      Who gave her the cachous?

                      That's the missing link...

                      The man who gave her the cachous was her killer... but why would he be carrying cachous in the first place?

                      To use for himself

                      A man who needed to get some fresh air perhaps?

                      Mortimer saw Goldstein looking towards the club
                      Goldstein looked towards the club after hearing the attack.
                      He knows it's a club member
                      Wess convinces him to go to the police to save the club and himself
                      Goldstein has to go as Schwartz to create a story.

                      Ultimately... nothing happened in Berner Street at all

                      Until around 1am when Stride was murdered by a man from the club.

                      Goldstein was the key witness but know he would be seen as the killer and so had to go as Schwartz.


                      When you look at all of what I've said, it ALL fits.


                      Except for the Goldstein looked "up" at the club instead of looking "at" the club.

                      If Goldstein looked at or towards the club and Mortimer's statement that he looked up at the club can be explained as the same thing, then Mortimer witnessed the man (Goldstein) who witnessed the murder of Stride.


                      I have been trying to prove myself wrong but

                      IF Goldstein was Schwartz

                      And...

                      Goldstein looked towards the club is the same as looking up at the club...

                      Then I believe my hypothesis covers it all.

                      ​​​​​​BUT..that would then exclude Stride as a ripper victim.

                      And so when Le Grand for involved, he saw an opportunity to push for the murder having been a ripper killing, based on the letters being faked to pedal a double event and for the WVC to justify extorting more reward money.


                      It all fits...unless someone can help me to disprove myself.


                      RD
                      Hi RD,

                      How does James Brown and what he saw fit in here?

                      It seems like Eagle is doing a lot here. He walks his girlfriend home, comes back with cigarettes (Would we expect Eagle to be a cigarette salesman?), but instead of just taking the cigarettes straight into the club, he meets up with Stride for awhile.

                      I would drop the part about Goldstein immediately knowing that the attack was by a club member. I don't see how he could have known that, and I don't think that any other part of your narrative depends on that anyway.

                      I'd say it fits if you accept that the police were wrong about a few things: wrong about the Schwartz incident happening, wrong about who Schwartz and Goldstein were, wrong about it being a Ripper murder, without any of these things being proven. Generally, I think it's best to keep unproven police errors to a minimum.

                      Comment



                      • Both Goldstein and Schwartz were interviewed by the police.

                        Would the police not have noticed if they were the same person?

                        Goldstein lived at 22 Christian St and Schwartz lived at 22 Ellen St.

                        Are we really to believe that Schwartz gave a false address to the police?

                        Are we really expected to believe that Goldstein, with his black shiny bag, transformed himself into the theatrical Schwartz?

                        And where is the evidence that Goldstein was Hungarian?



                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                          My point about Goldstein is that you need to imagine he follows the path of Schwartz as he walks down Berner Street.

                          Goldstein walks down the same side of the road as Mortimer's residence and as she opens the door to look down Berner Street she sees Goldstein look towards the club and then hurriedly walk across the road and walk around the corner by the board school.

                          Mortimer witnesses the exact moment that Goldstein witnesses the sound of Stride being murdered in the yard. He then crosses the street as he passes the gateway and then hurriedly walks around the corner.

                          When Goldstein is seen by Mortimer looking up at the club, Goldstein is responding to the audible sound of Stride being murdered.

                          So we have Mortimer witness Goldstein witnessing the murder. This all happens at the SAME TIME.

                          BUT...

                          because Goldstein witnesses the attack on Stride outside the club, he then tells Wess and in order to clear himself from being seen as the killer (and not the witness) AND to save the club, Wess convinces Goldstein to tell the police.
                          On the subject of Goldstein supposedly clearing himself of suspicion by explaining his whereabouts before entering Berner St - I've never understood the corelation. Who cares where Goldstein was previously? His prior location is neither here nor there, metaphorically speaking. Could Lechmere have avoided the suspicion of modern theorists by saying he left home early to go via his mother's place to pick up his laundry?

                          I suggest if you want to increase the perceived incentive for Goldstein to go to the police under a pseudonym, consider weaving the Evening News interview into your story.

                          BUT
                          ​​​​​
                          the only way that Goldstein can be sure not to implicate himself is to say he saw thr assault on Stride 15 minutes before it actually did...and because he may have been seen, he goes to the station incognito and gives his account as a generic looking Jew called Schwartz.

                          As Schwartz, Goldstein then tells a story of an assault by BS man and his potential accomplice in Pipeman.

                          ​​​​​​BUT Bs Man and Pipeman don't exist because the incident that Schwartz describes is designed to alter the time of the actual murder AND for the assault to be seen as an Anti Jewish attack by someone shouting Lipski and attacking a woman outside the club, caused by a man who approached her from the north.


                          BUT... and here's the crucial thing... Goldsteins story that he tells as Schwartz has elements of TRUTH.

                          Goldstein DID walk down Berner At (like Schwartz)
                          Goldstein DID witness an assault as he got to the gateway (like Schwartz)
                          Goldstein DID cross the road and hurry off (like Schwartz did when he crossed the road)

                          And so when Goldstein tells his story AS SCHWARTZ, he's giving us hints and incorporating elements of what he DID WITNESS as himself (Goldstein)
                          ​​​​​You're on stronger ground here. Goldstein's and Schwartz's timing and movements are all but identical, except that compared to Mortimer, Schwartz's description is more theatrical.

                          ​​​​​​The 2 prime suspects are Lave and Eagle.

                          Eagle is Parcelman returning with cigarettes for the club members still in the club
                          Lave goes out because he needs fresh air from the cigarette smoke.
                          Goldstein tells the police his bag was full of empty cigarette cases
                          Goldstein AS SCHWARTZ describes a man lighting up (pipeman that he creates)
                          The yard where Stride was murdered had cigar makers who lived there.
                          ​​​​Stride is found with Cachous in her hand...to sweeten her breath from cigarettes?
                          Who gave her the cachous?

                          That's the missing link...

                          The man who gave her the cachous was her killer... but why would he be carrying cachous in the first place?

                          To use for himself

                          A man who needed to get some fresh air perhaps?

                          Mortimer saw Goldstein looking towards the club
                          Goldstein looked towards the club after hearing the attack.
                          He knows it's a club member
                          Wess convinces him to go to the police to save the club and himself
                          Goldstein has to go as Schwartz to create a story.
                          The problem with Lave being the murderer who initially goes outside for fresh air, away the smoke of the cigars that Eagle supposedly delivers, is that Lave seems to have gone outside before Eagle returned.
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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                          • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post

                            Both Goldstein and Schwartz were interviewed by the police.

                            Would the police not have noticed if they were the same person?
                            They probably would have noticed, and so for the theory to work, two men must go to the police.

                            The theory is that 'Israel Schwartz' was a pseudonym used by Goldstein. Up until 'Leon Goldstein' goes to the police station, there is no issue. Then a man must accompany Wess to Leman St, state his name as being 'Leon Goldstein', and sign a piece of paper. Easy done. That man could have been anyone, but I'll take a guess that it was a J. Goldstein, who did exist.

                            Goldstein lived at 22 Christian St and Schwartz lived at 22 Ellen St.

                            Are we really to believe that Schwartz gave a false address to the police?
                            Other than Schwartz giving that address, we have no evidence he actually lived there at any stage. We do have the coroner stating that "it would be unreasonable to adjourn this inquiry again on the chance of something further being ascertained to elucidate the mysterious case on which they had devoted so much time". Perhaps Schwartz had gone missing. Perhaps Ellen St was his address prior to moving. He was found on Backchurch Lane, so he does seem to move around, although strangely enough no modern researcher has been able to positively identify him in the records. Had 'Israel Schwartz' been a pseudonym of Leon Goldstein, that is just what we would expect.

                            Are we really expected to believe that Goldstein, with his black shiny bag, transformed himself into the theatrical Schwartz?
                            Why did Schwartz behave theatrically? Was he exaggerating what he had seen? The essential difference between the respective transits of Berner St and beyond, by Goldstein and Schwartz, is that the latter is much more dramatic.
                            It's a little curious that Schwartz, a man supposedly of very limited material means, was able to present at Leman St station, "well dressed".

                            And where is the evidence that Goldstein was Hungarian?
                            Who said Schwartz was Hungarian, if not Schwartz himself? If a suitable Hungarian Israel Schwartz cannot be found, then Israel Schwartz's true identity is an open question.
                            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                              It seems like Eagle is doing a lot here. He walks his girlfriend home, comes back with cigarettes (Would we expect Eagle to be a cigarette salesman?), but instead of just taking the cigarettes straight into the club, he meets up with Stride for awhile.
                              Morris Eagle, who also affirmed, said: I live at No. 4, New-road, Commercial-road, and travel in jewellery.

                              I prefer Lave as being the man with the parcel. Is it possible that members would have been obliged to 'chip-in' for the supper Eagle was returning for? Had that been the case then Lave may have needed to make a quick sale or two.

                              I presume Lave would have known Diemschitz and his wife quite well, as they lived at #40 and Lave was temporarily staying at the club.

                              Lave name history
                              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                                When we read Mortimer's account, doesn't it sound to you like Goldstein was on the opposite side of Berner St. to where Mortimer stood?
                                She was at her door, right?

                                So, she doesn't say he passed within arms reach of her, right under her nose.

                                She also doesn't say he looked towards the club (your honest mistake?) , but to be exact, he looked up at the club. Which tends to suggest he looked at the upstairs room where they were singing and dancing, which sounds reasonable.

                                Can you imagine how you would have to twist your neck to look up to the first floor from the pavement at ground level while walking passed barely 2 feet away from the building?
                                He could very easily have stumbled, or lost his balance, trying to look up at such an acute angle.

                                He was walking down the east side, the other side of the road, wasn't he?
                                And Schwartz walked down the west side, Mortimer's side, didn't he?
                                Firstly, a brief answer to RD's contention that there are only two reason for a substantial (or voluminous) post not being answered. The third reason is ...that some of us have lives...not me, but some of us??

                                Back to business. I agree with you Jon. I think Goldstein was on the opposite side (the eastern side) of the road to Mortimer, and turned to his left at the Fairclough intersection to head towards his home. And it does say that he looked up, but if one were to be a little pedantic one could claim that he was walking with his head down, and looked up and towards the yard. I am not of that opinion.

                                Cheers, George
                                Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                                All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

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