The Stride Murder

[GBinOz]

Yes, exactly George, and the police version, as I posted earlier, makes no mention of 'open' gates.
Swanson writes that the woman was standing in the gateway, and she was thrown down on the footway - no mention of the passageway or open gates, they could well have been closed.

Stride was never here in Batty St., it was some unknown man arguing with a different woman.
Schwartz never saw Parcel-man, he is over in Berner St. with Stride.

Hi Jon,

I think I've got you theory straight now. My reservations would be firstly that if Parcelman had been with Stride the whole evening the story has the hallmarks of a romance, so suddenly killing her doesn't quite fit unless he were Jack, and Jack was more of an opportunistic blitz killer.
Secondly, the theory requires that Schwartz not only mis-identifies the street in which he was walking, but also mis-identifies Strides body as the woman that he saw that night. These are not meant to be criticisms, just observations.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

So, the problem you're trying to solve, is why no one saw Schwartz. I thought the answer was; Blah 30 seconds blah Fanny Mortimer blah toilet blah blah.

No?

Andrew, have you read post 671 above?
I'm suggesting, there are two separate stories.
Schwartz plays no part in what happened in Berner St.
Packer, Stride, Parcel-man play no role in what happened in Batty Street.

I'm not clear on what you suggested above.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wouldnt Wess know what street the club he belonged to and where his business was? It also might be that it was as you suggest, but Wess in his translation moved the location to Berner without Israels knowledge.

This highlights the dual stress that Schwartz was under, when he went to the police. Not only was there a risk of the police not believing him, but also having to trust that the interpreter didn't have his own agenda.

So, why did he put himself through it? Perhaps he thought it the right thing to do. Perhaps he was an attention seeker. Perhaps he was persuaded by Wess. The greatest possible motivation would have come from being seen exiting the yard and knowing it, at around the time of the murder. Seen, or possibly seen, as was the man with the black bag ...

Fanny: He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Schwartz statement is removed from the scenario, do you still have a problem with the packet of cachous?

It's hard to say if the packet had already been opened and was being gripped closed at the time of the attack, or if it had never been opened. The later scenario might suggest a gift from her attacker. Otherwise, I presume she just happened to be holding the packet at the time.

At the time of the attack, I can't imagine Stride and attacker standing talking in near darkness. More likely they had begun making their way down the passageway, when he struck. I've no idea how he might have persuaded her to do so, but she might have asked; why can't we go in the front door?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I think I've got you theory straight now. My reservations would be firstly that if Parcelman had been with Stride the whole evening the story has the hallmarks of a romance, so suddenly killing her doesn't quite fit unless he were Jack, and Jack was more of an opportunistic blitz killer.

George, 'we' created the idea of a blitz killer.

We don't know how long the killer was with Nichols, she was last seen at 2:30, found dead at 3:40 - that's 1 hour and 10 minutes.

Chapman was last seen about 1:35, but found dead just before 6:00 am, who had she been with for 5 and a quarter hours?

Stride then, is no different. She was with a man since 11:00 pm. at 12:45 she is murdered.

Where's the evidence this was a blitz killer?

The quickest murder is with Eddowes, and this may be because he had spent so much time with Stride, but was robbed of the time to mutilate, so went straight for the kill with the next woman he found.

Being with his victims for an hour or longer is like dating them, it's part of the thrill. Getting to know his victim all the while waiting for the right opportunity to murder them.

Secondly, the theory requires that Schwartz not only mis-identifies the street in which he was walking, but also mis-identifies Strides body as the woman that he saw that night.

It's not like he saw the woman face-to-face, it was night, he was more concerned about the man being physical, and likely his own safety.
The woman he identified wore black clothes, like almost every other woman out at night.
He didn't say he knew Stride personally, he'd likely never seen her before, so the body he identified looked similar, dressed similar - must have been her, right?

[Wickerman]

It's hard to say if the packet had already been opened and was being gripped closed at the time of the attack, or if it had never been opened. The later scenario might suggest a gift from her attacker. Otherwise, I presume she just happened to be holding the packet at the time.

At the time of the attack, I can't imagine Stride and attacker standing talking in near darkness. More likely they had begun making their way down the passageway, when he struck. I've no idea how he might have persuaded her to do so, but she might have asked; why can't we go in the front door?

Isn't the point for her to eventually treat him to a little sexual activity?, a dark spot down the yard might be ideal...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Could Stride have been attacked by the alleyway just outside the Red Lion Pub?

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18881002.html#:~:text=On%20Saturday%20night%20last,Lipski%27s%20crime%20was%20committed.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Andrew, have you read post 671 above?
I'm suggesting, there are two separate stories.
Schwartz plays no part in what happened in Berner St.
Packer, Stride, Parcel-man play no role in what happened in Batty Street.

I'm not clear on what you suggested above.

... having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed ...

Surely between Schwartz, interpreter and Abberline, they would have managed to get the right street. No?

When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved.

The interpreter at Leman St was described as a friend. Did this friend not know what street Schwartz had been living in?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Isn't the point for her to eventually treat him to a little sexual activity?, a dark spot down the yard might be ideal...

That sort of thing seems to have been very rare, if not non-existent.

Coroner: Have you ever seen a man and woman in the yard?
Wess: About twelve months ago I happened to go into the yard, and heard some chatting near the gate, and I at once went there and shut the gate.

[Wickerman]

That sort of thing seems to have been very rare, if not non-existent.

Coroner: Have you ever seen a man and woman in the yard?
Wess: About twelve months ago I happened to go into the yard, and heard some chatting near the gate, and I at once went there and shut the gate.

You think the killer knows where he is allowed to have sex, do you think he cares?

[Wickerman]

... having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed ...

Surely between Schwartz, interpreter and Abberline, they would have managed to get the right street. No?

When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved.

The interpreter at Leman St was described as a friend. Did this friend not know what street Schwartz had been living in?

The interpreter & Abberline are working on the assumption Schwartz walked down Berner St., thats where he thought he was.
Why should they question it?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You think the killer knows where he is allowed to have sex, do you think he cares?

I don't know if it was convention for the man or woman to choose the spot.
How confident are we that Stride was soliciting at the time?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The interpreter & Abberline are working on the assumption Schwartz walked down Berner St., thats where he thought he was.
Why should they question it?

Carefully questioning witnesses was Abberline's job.

Abberline: I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say.

[Wickerman]

I don't know if it was convention for the man or woman to choose the spot.
How confident are we that Stride was soliciting at the time?

I recall Chapman said she was going out for one more 'trick' to pay for her bed. I know Nichols said she'd had her doss money three times that day already, but at 2:30 set out for one more 'trick' as well.
There's a quote somewhere from one of these women to a journalist where she says 'if your meals and drink are paid for and you get 4d at the end of it we consider that a good night', of words to that effect.
That sounds more like Liz's strategy, to pick up one man for the evening.

[Wickerman]

Carefully questioning witnesses was Abberline's job.

Abberline: I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say.

I accept that, but Abberline isn't asking him "are you sure you were in Berner Street?", thats a given. Schwartz has already told them where he was, yet the police statement oddly contains no references to location, he doesn't even name Dutfields Yard. He just says he passed a gateway, no mention of a pub to police, or the Board School.

I think Schwartz 'could' have learned about a woman being murdered last night in some gateway a few streets away and him thinking 'I saw a woman assaulted last night in a gateway, I wonder if that was her', so he goes to police. The whole story evolves from that, because the circumstances were similar to what he witnessed he naturally assumes he saw the murder.

So, if he tells police he saw it, who are they to question where he was.
They will have realized no other witnesses mention him, and neither he them - so what is going on here?
Which is what we're all thinking too.

I'm suggesting the police took a while to investigate his story, and discovered he saw a different assault in a nearby street.