Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

Whether blood clots on the back of a hand could be mistaken for grapes is, of course, a matter of opinion. I think they could, in the general shock, horror and general confusion. Reddish black, round?

Do you think the witness might wonder how she came to balance a bunch of grapes on the back of her hand while it was lying at a sloping angle across her breast?


Constable Lamb did admit to grasping her hand, the nearest one to him is this same right hand. He felt for a pulse, but he also told the court that some of the blood on the ground was liquid, but elsewhere it had congealed.
Now, in the dark blood looks like oil, and at night you cannot tell if blood is liquid or congealed unless you touch it.

So my conjecture is that PC Lamb felt her face (as he says), then saw the blood around her neck, touched it to see if it was still liquid, then felt her pulse, thereby transferring the clotted blood to her wrist.

Clenching of the hands is a sign of strangulation - he didn't have to kill his victims, just render them unconscious for the time it took to cut their throats.

Entirely agree, the victims were not killed at this point just unconscious at best.

[curious4]

Clots or blood clots?

Hello Jon,

Yes, you could be right about the blood transfer, sounds logical. What I was imagining/considering was what a crowd of people round the body, at perhaps a distance, could have thought they were seeing. "Is that grapes in her hand?", sort of thing. Sweets AND grapes, "poor dear, just out enjoying herself" Rumours fly round and then we have Packer getting his fifteen minutes of fame. Not committing myself on Packer either way, I hasten to add.

Best wishes,
C4

[Wickerman]

Hi Gwyneth.

Hello Jon,

Yes, you could be right about the blood transfer, sounds logical. What I was imagining/considering was what a crowd of people round the body, at perhaps a distance, could have thought they were seeing. "Is that grapes in her hand?", sort of thing. Sweets AND grapes, "poor dear, just out enjoying herself" Rumours fly round and then we have Packer getting his fifteen minutes of fame. Not committing myself on Packer either way, I hasten to add.

Best wishes,
C4

I've spent many hours trying to find out what these cachous (alt. sweetmeats), looked like in the late 19th century.
I'm inclined to think they were not as small as those 'imps' we often talk about as the doctors were able to see these cachous in the dark and in the mud. Those 'imps' were not much larger than the head of a match, not likely to be noticeable at night in the dark & wet mud.

However, some cachous/sweetmeats were dried, fruit or berries, coated in sugar. I have had to wonder if these reports of 'grapes' were nothing more than the cachous we already know about.
Therefore, I suspect, she held the packet of cachous in her left hand, but a few loose in her right hand (seen by Diemschutz & Kozebrodski, thought to be grapes).

When PC Lamb felt for her pulse he dislodged the loose cachous which fell into the gutter, as mentioned by Dr Phillips.

The existence of 'grapes' has long been a source of controversy, but for two independent witnesses to see them suggests to me that there must be a simple solution.

The only contribution I see from Packer is that he claimed to see Stride with a man about 12:30, at the same time & location as PC Smith.

[Wickerman]

Clenching of the hands is a sign of strangulation - ...

Interestingly, in a press interview, from Diemschutz, we read:

"...In one hand she had some grapes and in the other some sweets. She was grasping them tightly."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18881001.html

Who knows!

[Tom_Wescott]

The blood clots were on the front lower part of the hand and were transferred there by Edward Johnston, who first loosened her collar and felt the neck for a pulse, then picked up the wrist. The blood was not noticed by anyone, such as Edward Spooner, prior to Johnston's arrival, but were noticed after Johnston came into contact with the body.

Stride's hand was clenched, so in the darkness of the yard, the 'oblong clots' could have appeared as something she was gripping in her hand, such as grapes.

What is fact is that Matthew Packer did not sell grapes to Liz Stride and she did not consume any grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Your guesswork is as good as anyone's Tom.

[curious4]

Blood clots

The blood clots were on the front lower part of the hand and were transferred there by Edward Johnston, who first loosened her collar and felt the neck for a pulse, then picked up the wrist. The blood was not noticed by anyone, such as Edward Spooner, prior to Johnston's arrival, but were noticed after Johnston came into contact with the body.

Stride's hand was clenched, so in the darkness of the yard, the 'oblong clots' could have appeared as something she was gripping in her hand, such as grapes.

What is fact is that Matthew Packer did not sell grapes to Liz Stride and she did not consume any grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom W,

I quote (from Jack the Ripper Sourcebook) Dr Phillips: "The right arm was over the belly. The back of the hand and wrist had on it clotted blood", (inquest testimony) and further on, "Coroner: "Have you formed any opinion how the right hand of the deceased was covered in blood?" Witness: "No; that is a mystery."

I know that the transference theory has been put forward as an explanation, but a) can clots be transferred in this way? and b) would enough blood have been transferred in this way to form clots?

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Cachous

Hi Gwyneth.


I've spent many hours trying to find out what these cachous (alt. sweetmeats), looked like in the late 19th century.
I'm inclined to think they were not as small as those 'imps' we often talk about as the doctors were able to see these cachous in the dark and in the mud. Those 'imps' were not much larger than the head of a match, not likely to be noticeable at night in the dark & wet mud.

However, some cachous/sweetmeats were dried, fruit or berries, coated in sugar. I have had to wonder if these reports of 'grapes' were nothing more than the cachous we already know about.
Therefore, I suspect, she held the packet of cachous in her left hand, but a few loose in her right hand (seen by Diemschutz & Kozebrodski, thought to be grapes).

When PC Lamb felt for her pulse he dislodged the loose cachous which fell into the gutter, as mentioned by Dr Phillips.

The existence of 'grapes' has long been a source of controversy, but for two independent witnesses to see them suggests to me that there must be a simple solution.

The only contribution I see from Packer is that he claimed to see Stride with a man about 12:30, at the same time & location as PC Smith.

Hello Jon,

I had an aunt who relied on violet cachous (apparently) and seem to remember a kind of tablet, vaguely oblong and about the size of a fingernail (female). They were coloured purple. Not sure if these were the same kind Liz would have had, but only relatively recently has the idea of "new, improved" taken over from "traditional", so it could well have been.

So, yes, you could be right!

Best wishes,
Gwyneth/C4

[Michael W Richards]

Or, at least, he heard the side-effects of what the Ripper was doing. I believe Cadosch only heard Annie's voice, if such it was, and even then only a syllable.

My apologies for the delay in responding Sam, Holidays and all that....which by the way,... A Belated Merry and Happy to you. Im glad to see that we may put any disagreements away with my old nomme de plume (?sp) and resume some discussions.

Based on your remarks you also believe that we can exclude Mrs Long from this list?

Cheers SF

[Michael W Richards]

The blood clots were on the front lower part of the hand and were transferred there by Edward Johnston, who first loosened her collar and felt the neck for a pulse, then picked up the wrist. The blood was not noticed by anyone, such as Edward Spooner, prior to Johnston's arrival, but were noticed after Johnston came into contact with the body.

Stride's hand was clenched, so in the darkness of the yard, the 'oblong clots' could have appeared as something she was gripping in her hand, such as grapes.

What is fact is that Matthew Packer did not sell grapes to Liz Stride and she did not consume any grapes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Bold... and in my opinion also, the correct view.

The blood flow was contained in a manner of speaking by the gutter, which also would wash rain water through...I would imagine that fluids just look like fluids in near darkness, until of course a clot is discovered.

Like the bold position though...fully agree.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

Your guesswork is as good as anyone's Tom.

I don't guess. I research.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom W,

I quote (from Jack the Ripper Sourcebook) Dr Phillips: "The right arm was over the belly. The back of the hand and wrist had on it clotted blood", (inquest testimony) and further on, "Coroner: "Have you formed any opinion how the right hand of the deceased was covered in blood?" Witness: "No; that is a mystery."

I know that the transference theory has been put forward as an explanation, but a) can clots be transferred in this way? and b) would enough blood have been transferred in this way to form clots?

Best wishes,
C4

Hi Curious4, I believe the Sourcebook quotes from The Times. You should look at some other press sources. While there may have been blood on the back of the hands, there was certainly blood on the wrists, which is what we're talking about here. And you seem to be thrown off by the word 'clot'. All blood clots. If you cut your hand and a little blood comes out, it will shortly clot. So it stands to reason that the oblong marks of blood would have clotted by the time the doctor got there. The only way that blood could have gotten onto her hand and wrist is by someone transferring it there from her neck wound. The person who did that was Edward Johnston. This is pretty elementary stuff, but some folks prefer to struggle with it. Not sure why.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

It is easier to see Johnston as the least likely to transfer the blood for several reason's.

First, Johnston felt both hands to see if they were cold, but blood was only deposited on the right hand. If Johnston was the cause we would expect blood marks on both hands.

Second, Johnston was specifically asked about the blood marks, to which he claimed to notice none. If he had blood on his own hands at any point, just like you or I, he would have noticed his own bloodied hand.

Third, PC Lamb only touched one hand, not both, and was not asked about the blood marks as he gave evidence on a different day. The issue had not arisen. We are not told, nor did anyone ask, if his hands were bloody.


Stride's right hand was smeared with blood both inside and out, consistent with it being caused by someone who was taking the pulse (which is the correct way to grasp the hand), not someone who was touching the outside of the hand to see if it was warm.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

I have no intention of getting into an endless circular debate with you. I've laid out the facts, so there it is. Johnston did not feel her neck and then feel both wrists. For starters, even a medical man in training doesn't feel for a pulse THREE TIMES, and secondly, and most obviously, he couldn't reach her left wrist at that time because she was laying on her left arm.

As for his admission, he likely wasn't aware he had done it. Also, he and Blackwell were not entirely honest at the inquest, in case you hadn't noticed.

Bottom line is that it was Johnston who transferred blood to Stride's wrist. Creating doubt and debate where there should be none is not particularly helpful. In any event, we already have Mike Richards and Sam Flynn for that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Creating doubt and debate where there should be none is not particularly helpful. In any event, we already have Mike Richards and Sam Flynn for that.

I only create doubt and debate where I feel there is cause for them, Tom. Your thanks are nonetheless noted and reciprocated, for the same reasons