Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Tom_Wescott]

It has been suggested that Lawende played down his role in front of the press, perhaps on advice from the police?
Yet Swanson includes the fact that Lawende was not as able as they would have liked, so we cannot accept Swanson pursuing the charade even into police reports to his superior.
Therefore, Lawende must have truly been unsure about the man he saw.

Either that or the City Police told the Met Police a big one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Regarding Schwartz, I believe he was briefly a suspect himself, so that might be why he wasn't at the inquest. In any event, the police clearly wanted to keep him 'under wraps' so that might be reason enough.

[Hunter]

It has been suggested that Lawende played down his role in front of the press, perhaps on advice from the police?
Yet Swanson includes the fact that Lawende was not as able as they would have liked, so we cannot accept Swanson pursuing the charade even into police reports to his superior.
Therefore, Lawende must have truly been unsure about the man he saw.

Yes, both Swanson and McWilliam mentioned that fact in their HO reports.

Unlike Mrs. Long, Schwartz or Hutchinson, Lawende didn't go to the police with his information, but was found during a house-to-house enquiry. He would have been a somewhat reluctant witness and a little concerned about his own well being. He was sequestered and guarded as much for his own safety as for keeping him from the press. His friends didn't talk much either and could have to the press.

Swanson did believe that, out of all of the witnesses so far, Lawende likely saw Kate Eddowes with her murderer. The police played the weak hand they'd been dealt.

If you look at the two suspects we know Lawende was apparently used in ID attempts of (Sadler and Grainger) the reason is obvious and was the one thing the police wanted to keep close to their chests - "appearance of a sailor."

[harry]

Schwartz information of pipeman ,would seem to tally with that of Brown.Neither of them reported any other male person in the vicinity,excluding BS,and he could have departed the same way he arrived thus averting being seen by Brown.My opinion of course,is that pipeman and the male Brown reported as being in Stride's company,are the same person.

[Nick Spring]

It has been suggested that Lawende played down his role in front of the press, perhaps on advice from the police?
Yet Swanson includes the fact that Lawende was not as able as they would have liked, so we cannot accept Swanson pursuing the charade even into police reports to his superior.
Therefore, Lawende must have truly been unsure about the man he saw.

Hi Jon,

thanks for that.

Not as able or not as willing? who knows. The description he gives is reasonable though.

Best

Nick

[Nick Spring]

Yes, both Swanson and McWilliam mentioned that fact in their HO reports.

Unlike Mrs. Long, Schwartz or Hutchinson, Lawende didn't go to the police with his information, but was found during a house-to-house enquiry. He would have been a somewhat reluctant witness and a little concerned about his own well being. He was sequestered and guarded as much for his own safety as for keeping him from the press. His friends didn't talk much either and could have to the press.

Swanson did believe that, out of all of the witnesses so far, Lawende likely saw Kate Eddowes with her murderer. The police played the weak hand they'd been dealt.

If you look at the two suspects we know Lawende was apparently used in ID attempts of (Sadler and Grainger) the reason is obvious and was the one thing the police wanted to keep close to their chests - "appearance of a sailor."

"Swanson did believe that, out of all of the witnesses so far, Lawende likely saw Kate Eddowes with her murderer". Yes that makes sense given the timings.

cheers

Nick

[lynn cates]

Mac

Hello All. Perhaps we should balance our speculation against Mac's dictum that no one saw the ripper.

Cheers.
LC

[Nick Spring]

Hello All. Perhaps we should balance our speculation against Mac's dictum that no one saw the ripper.

Cheers.
LC

Er ...except the City policeman

[Damaso Marte]

I believe that its very possible that the person who killed Polly and Annie, the man who was the inspiration for the Ripper nickname on the letter dated the 27th, didnt kill anyone else in the Canonical Five.

In which case, since no witnesses saw those 2 women just before their murder in the company of someone....(Cadosche only heard something)...I would say that its probable no-one saw the person who was nicknamed The Ripper.

Some of you people think Mrs Fiddymont saw him, no?

[Abby Normal]

Hutch saw the ripper...

Whenever he looked into a mirror

[Abby Normal]

seriouly though. I think out of all the supects, that blotchy has the best chance of being the ripper, therefor Cox was most likely to see the ripper.

I also think that schwartz, marshall and lawende probably saw the ripper-the suspect i call peaked cap man, the night of the double event.

If blotchy was not the ripper, then sarah lewis probably saw the ripper in Mr. Waity Watchy, AKA as wide awake man, AKA hutch.

smith and long might have seen the ripper.

[Wickerman]

....

If you look at the two suspects we know Lawende was apparently used in ID attempts of (Sadler and Grainger) the reason is obvious and was the one thing the police wanted to keep close to their chests - "appearance of a sailor."

I have to wonder where this 'obvious reason' first surfaced.

Lawende never said the man looked like a sailor, and it did not come from either Levy or Harris.

Even if the police believed the Berner St. killer was the same as the Mitre Sq. killer, the man described by Schwartz (BS-man) was not said to look like a sailor. The man seen by PC Smith did not look like a sailor, and Wm. Marshall said his suspect wore a peaked cap like a sailor might wear - yet the man did not look like a sailor, he looked like a Clerk.

I'm not aware of anything written by police that might suggest they were withholding this detail, the suggestion they might have withheld "appearance of a sailor." came from the press, not police.
It could be argued that Lawende might have been about to give this detail away at the Inquest, before he was interrupted by Mr Crawford, and prevented from divulging any further information.
Yes, it 'could' be said, however, the Berner St. killer looked like a Clerk, not a sailor.

So if Lawende was about to say this, then he was about to describe a different man as the killer of Eddowes.

[Ben]

Abby - I very much agree.

(With both your posts!)

Lawende never said the man looked like a sailor

Yes he did, Jon.

"Appearance of a sailor" was an extract from Donald Swanson's report, dated 19th October. The police-fed newspaper, the Police Gazette, used the exact same phrase. There can be little doubt, therefore, that Lawende described the man as having such an appearance.

Schwartz didn't specify a sailor-like appearance, but then such a style of dress would have stood out considerably less in Berner Street, so close to the docks, where dockers and sailors were two a penny in comparison to the more affluent City streets. The "clerkly" man was on the scene before BS and Pipeman, and was clearly neither of those, in my view. At any rate, he's far less suspicious a "person of interest" for the Berner Street crime than sailor boy is for Mitre Square.

So if Lawende was about to say this, then he was about to describe a different man as the killer of Eddowes.

If Lawende was about to say what?

Sorry, don't quite get it.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Yes he did, Jon.

"Appearance of a sailor" was an extract from Donald Swanson's report, dated 19th October. The police-fed newspaper, the Police Gazette, used the exact same phrase. There can be little doubt, therefore, that Lawende described the man as having such an appearance.

You're missing my point Ben, I know where 'we' first read it, what I question is where did Swanson first get it from, it was not from Lawende, unless we choose to believe that Lawende saw a different man than was described in Berner St.

[Tom_Wescott]

Appearance of a sailor would fit probably half the men of the lodging house class, almost none of whom were sailors. it's not like they wore white uniforms with funny little hats. It's just the best way Lawende could answer the question that was always posed of witnesses at that time - 'What would you guess his profession to be?' It's like when someone answers a 'clerk', the odds are the man really isn't a clerk, he simply doesn't look like he does physical labor. Schwartz may not have had the familiarity with gentile London types and professions to guess at a sailor. It's just possible that had Lawende been in Berner Street, he might have thought BS man resembled a sailor. Probably not, but it's worth considering.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Boggles]

i'll take your sailor suspect and raise you one. From the Rose Mylett murder young girl named Neos Green...

(btw a lot of sailors around that night it seems, see Charles Ptolomy)