Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Abby Normal]

And merchant marine.

merchant marine. hmmm i like it and sounds like blotchy to me.
drinks, local joe, goes to pubs, reddish hair, blotchy face, has a little money, frequents prostitutes. perhaps has an on board schedule that keeps him off the tsreet during certain times (middle of the month).

yes blotchy as a merchant marine sounds good to me.

[Wickerman]

Clerks and sailors. Clerks and sailors. Bah.

It's the peaked cap folks.

Marshall, Schwartz and Lawendes all describe a man with a peak cap.

My money is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.
Right? c'mon folks this isn't rocket science.

Ten out of ten Abby, no-one said anything about a sailor, not even Lawende.

This whole "appearance of a sailor" was an interpretation adopted by the police based solely on various witness sightings of a man in a peaked cap.

[Ben]

no-one said anything about a sailor, not even Lawende

Yes, he did!

We don't have to invest the "sailor" detail with more significance than the observation warrants. It's clear that lots of men could be described as having a sailor-like appearance, in whatever respect, without any of them actually going anywhere near a rudder or a bottle of rum in his life. But we must still acknowledge the fact that the Lawende said the man looked like a sailor.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Swanson most assuredly got "appearance of a sailor" from Lawende - that much is factually established.

Ben, please feel free to post where Lawende said "appearance of a sailor". I'd hate to think this factual morsel has had a limited distribution.

The first published description of the Lawende suspect appeared on 2nd Oct. - though no source is provided. This was nine days before Lawende appeared as a witness, and was hushed up by Crawford.

The press had a better rapport with the City police, so this may be from an official source.
"...He is described as of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak."
Times, 2 Oct. 1888.

No mention of "appearance of a sailor", and likewise in his official report to the H.O., Insp. McWilliam makes no mention of this very 'important'? detail.
In fact, the idea just surfaces out of the blue with Swanson, but Lawende was a City witness.
Swanson's dependency on the City for information appears to be reflected in his own words:
"..In this case I understand from City Police that Mr Lewin (Lawende), one of the men identified the clothing only of the murdered woman Eddowes, which is a serious drawback to the value of the description of the man."

It appears, from his own words, that Swanson was not dealing first-hand with Lawende.

The suggestion "appearance of a sailor", originated with Swanson, but is not noted by any City sources, nor by the City witness himself, at any time.

[Wickerman]

Yes, he did!

We don't have to invest the "sailor" detail with more significance than the observation warrants. It's clear that lots of men could be described as having a sailor-like appearance, in whatever respect, without any of them actually going anywhere near a rudder or a bottle of rum in his life. But we must still acknowledge the fact that the Lawende said the man looked like a sailor.

Ben.
The press believed this detail had been suppressed, due to its importance.
Here both you and Tom have now suggested that lots/numerous/many men could have looked "like a sailor", without actually being anywhere near the sea.
Ok, so where is the value in this?

It cannot be both Ben, it is either important and worthy of suppression because it is unique, or, it is not important, the press (as usual) were mistaken in their assumption, and Lawende never made any such claim.

I have suggested the latter - :
It is not important, the press (as usual) were mistaken in their assumption, and Lawende never made any such claim.

Show me where any one of these points is wrong.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

I think you just have to be reasonable and assess the likelihood of the suggestion that Swanson, the police official with personal overall charge of the ripper investigation, would manufacture the "appearance of a sailor" detail and include it in his 19th October report (and sanction its publication in the Police Gazette of the same date) unless he was absolutely certain that Lawende uttered those words. If you're arguing that Swanson was dependent on "City information", then you'll appreciate that that the City were just as dependent on "Lawende information". You will then note, accordingly, that Swanson obtained his information from the City, who obtained their information from Lawende. The only ludicrous position to adopt would be one that asserts that Swanson invented the sailor detail.

That's the beginning and end of the point I'm making. I do not intend arguing over what was suppressed and why, and I'm certainly not trying to press for Jack the Sailor. I'm simply addressing the reality that Lawende described the man as having a sailor-like appearance. Make of it what you will, just don't claim he never said it.

[John Wheat]

How do we know who did and didn't see Jack the Ripper?

Cheers John

[Nick Spring]

How do we know who did and didn't see Jack the Ripper?

Cheers John

Hi John,

We don't but working the witness sighting and times of death you get a better idea.

Lawende, Long, Cox, Hutchinson et al.

cheers

Nick

[Hunter]

I generally do not get involved in protracted debates, but rather offer information or make a point and move on. However, I believe some further clarification on the "appearance of a sailor" topic is necessary.

This whole "appearance of a sailor" was an interpretation adopted by the police based solely on various witness sightings of a man in a peaked cap.

The "appearance of a sailor" clause was specific to Lawende's description only, as it appeared in Swanson's Oct. 19th HO report on the murder of Elizabeth Stride and the release in the Police Gazette following the erroneous description and sketch appearing in the Daily Telegraph. In both instances, it would have been verbatim what was relayed through the various departments from the written statement taken during Lawende's interrogation. This was the way it was done. Swanson would not have added anything speculative on his part in this instance.

McWilliam did not mention this in his Oct. 27 HO report because it had already been released on the 19th and was at hand at the Home Office. In fact, McWilliam repeats none of Lawende's description in his HO report. He only explains the caveats surrounding the evidence of these three witnesses to give an idea to the HO as to what this evidence represented to the police and their investigation. Swanson does the same in his Nov. 6 HO report (not repeating the actual description) on the Met's involvement in the Eddowes murder investigation for the same reason.

I hope this clarifies police procedure and the chain of events regarding this matter.

[The Good Michael]

And merchant marine.

Yes, and merchant marines are military in a support and spying fashion.

Mike

[Observer]

Ten out of ten Abby, no-one said anything about a sailor, not even Lawende.

This whole "appearance of a sailor" was an interpretation adopted by the police based solely on various witness sightings of a man in a peaked cap.

Hi Wickerman

I havn't been following this thread, so forgive me if I have the wrong end of the stick here.

From the Daily Telegraph 2nd October, Liz Stride inquest. Coroner quizzing Marshall.

Coroner] Was he wearing a hat? - No, a cap.
[Coroner] What sort of a cap? - A round cap, with a small peak. It was something like what a sailor would wear.

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

I havn't been following this thread, so forgive me if I have the wrong end of the stick here.

From the Daily Telegraph 2nd October, Liz Stride inquest. Coroner quizzing Marshall.

Coroner] Was he wearing a hat? - No, a cap.
[Coroner] What sort of a cap? - A round cap, with a small peak. It was something like what a sailor would wear.

Hi Observer.
Do you mind if I provide the rest of Marshall's testimony?

[Coroner] Did he look well dressed? - Decently dressed.
[Coroner] What class of man did he appear to be? - I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work.
[Coroner] Not like a dock labourer? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a sailor? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a butcher? - No.
[Coroner] A clerk? - He had more the appearance of a clerk.
[Coroner] Is that the best suggestion you can make? - It is.

So Marshall is not saying his suspect looked like a sailor, but that he looked like a clerk.

[Observer]

Hi Observer.
Do you mind if I provide the rest of Marshall's testimony?

[Coroner] Did he look well dressed? - Decently dressed.
[Coroner] What class of man did he appear to be? - I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work.
[Coroner] Not like a dock labourer? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a sailor? - No.
[Coroner] Nor a butcher? - No.
[Coroner] A clerk? - He had more the appearance of a clerk.
[Coroner] Is that the best suggestion you can make? - It is.

So Marshall is not saying his suspect looked like a sailor, but that he looked like a clerk.

Hi Wickerman

Point taken. I was aware Marshall had intimated that the man he saw with Stride had the appearance of a clerk. However, It seems as if the Coroner himself suggested to Marshall that the man had the appearance of a clerk, and Marshall agreed with him. The Coroner then suggested to Marshall whether the man spoke like a clerk, Marshall again answering in the positive.

[Coroner Did his voice give you the idea of a clerk? - Yes, he was mild speaking.

But, as you say he then asked Marshall if the man had the appearance of a sailor, to which he answered in the negative. Strange headgear for a clerk though wouldn't you think?

Regards

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

This goes back to what I was saying before...change your cap and you change your type. Having the "appearance of a sailor" based on a scarf or a cap does not a sailorman make. Good work, Wick.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

This goes back to what I was saying before...change your cap and you change your type. Having the "appearance of a sailor" based on a scarf or a cap does not a sailorman make. Good work, Wick.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.

Yes, especially when a used peak cap can be bought in Petticoat Lane for a few pence. The very term "appearance of a sailor" reads like a subjective deduction, in other words, the person who came up with this, whoever it was, was not sure.
Therefore, what value is there in that phrase? - Zip!