Matthew Packer

[Andypc]

That's really strange, as when I load the page I see the pictures alright? Any advice would be appreciated on how to fix so everyone can see them alright.

[Andypc]

Hopefully these are visible to people

[DJA]

Ripper!

Thank you.

[mpriestnall]

Ditto. Thanks for sharing.

[Enigma]

Thanks for the pictures. Do you have any family oral history passed down of the JtR incident you can share?

[erobitha]

Matthew Packer does divide opinion.

There are some who feel he has been viewed harshly and should have been taken more seriously as a witness.

My difficulty with him is the subsequent reports of him claiming he was stalked by the Ripper. Not just the letter, but there were some reports that he claimed he saw him again on the street.

Is there any family oral history that you have been privy to that could help shed some light?

My guess is, and correct me if I am wrong, you are only aware of your link to Matthew Packer through recent genealogy searching and may not have much more than some old photos and general genealogy info?

[Wickerman]

Matthew Packer does divide opinion.

...My difficulty with him is the subsequent reports of him claiming he was stalked by the Ripper. Not just the letter, but there were some reports that he claimed he saw him again on the street...

Thats the unfortunate side of Packer, how he appears to get carried away with the publicity. The Grapes fiasco also seems to have unduly influenced modern theorists on the reliability of his story, yet the grape story has nothing to do with Packer himself.
Swanson ought to have been clearer on what he thought was untrustworthy, but we know today that a witness will often claim to know nothing on first questioning simply because they don't want to get involved. Only on later questioning will the truth come out and it turns out they saw more than they initially claimed. That doesn't mean they are not reliable.

What really hurt Packer was his inability to remember the time he saw Liz & her companion come to his shop. When they walked away they stood by the club for a while but was this between 11:00-11:30 or 12:00-12:30?
The police knew it was not 11:00-11:30 due to the evidence of Best & Gardner who saw Stride at the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00pm., but they can't tell Packer he must figure it out himself.
It was PC William Smith who's testimony confirms seeing the man carrying a package at 12:30 accompanied by Liz.
I'm satisfied that this portion of Packer's statement is likely true, and he saw Liz & her companion stand by the club between 12:00-12:30, this being confirmed by PC Smith who saw the same two.
As for anything else Packer said, we have no corroboration over anything of significance.

I also agree with your last sentence, likely this is the totality of what the poster knows about Matthew packer.

[GBinOz]

Thats the unfortunate side of Packer, how he appears to get carried away with the publicity. The Grapes fiasco also seems to have unduly influenced modern theorists on the reliability of his story, yet the grape story has nothing to do with Packer himself.
Swanson ought to have been clearer on what he thought was untrustworthy, but we know today that a witness will often claim to know nothing on first questioning simply because they don't want to get involved. Only on later questioning will the truth come out and it turns out they saw more than they initially claimed. That doesn't mean they are not reliable.

What really hurt Packer was his inability to remember the time he saw Liz & her companion come to his shop. When they walked away they stood by the club for a while but was this between 11:00-11:30 or 12:00-12:30?
The police knew it was not 11:00-11:30 due to the evidence of Best & Gardner who saw Stride at the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00pm., but they can't tell Packer he must figure it out himself.
It was PC William Smith who's testimony confirms seeing the man carrying a package at 12:30 accompanied by Liz.
I'm satisfied that this portion of Packer's statement is likely true, and he saw Liz & her companion stand by the club between 12:00-12:30, this being confirmed by PC Smith who saw the same two.
As for anything else Packer said, we have no corroboration over anything of significance.

I also agree with your last sentence, likely this is the totality of what the poster knows about Matthew packer.

Hi Jon,

Packer was sixty years old at the time, so consideration has to be given to whether early onset dementia may have played a part in his memory lapses. Against that is his comment to his wife about the couple standing in the rain, and that he closed early due to the rain, when Smith testified that the rain had ceased around 11pm.

As I recall he said that the man lived locally, so seeing him in the street while he was attending his stall doesn't strike me as beyond the realm of possibility. I found myself thinking of Kosminski, but I doubt he would have cultivated the English accent reported by Packer.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Packer was sixty years old at the time, so consideration has to be given to whether early onset dementia may have played a part in his memory lapses. Against that is his comment to his wife about the couple standing in the rain, and that he closed early due to the rain, when Smith testified that the rain had ceased around 11pm.

As I recall he said that the man lived locally, so seeing him in the street while he was attending his stall doesn't strike me as beyond the realm of possibility. I found myself thinking of Kosminski, but I doubt he would have cultivated the English accent reported by Packer.

Cheers, George

There'll be untold numbers of 60 year olds wondering what you are talking about George.
Why introduce dementia, no-one else has, if he was over 80, then perhaps?

Swanson was at least 62 when he wrote his marginalia - Dementia maybe?

Packer was clearly aware of the parcel-man unless you suggest PC Smith was making him up?
Most people relied on clock chimes to determine the time, knowing the precise time wasn't as important in those days unlike today. So his inability to know the exact time only suggests he may have not owned a clock.

[GBinOz]

There'll be untold numbers of 60 year olds wondering what you are talking about George.
Why introduce dementia, no-one else has, if he was over 80, then perhaps?

Swanson was at least 62 when he wrote his marginalia - Dementia maybe?

Packer was clearly aware of the parcel-man unless you suggest PC Smith was making him up?
Most people relied on clock chimes to determine the time, knowing the precise time wasn't as important in those days unlike today. So his inability to know the exact time only suggests he may have not owned a clock.

Hi Jon,

I don't know how old you are, but I'm 74 and have been aware of memory problems and confusion of times for some time. According to the Mayo Clinic about 5% to 6% of people with Alzheimer's disease develop symptoms before age 65. The confusion between 11:00 to 11:30 and 12:00 to 12:30, plus the time he closed, and the time the rain stopped all indicate a confusion of details. I have no doubt that he observed the couple where Smith testified, it's the details that he could have confused. Make every endeavour not to get old Jon.....it's the pits.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I don't know how old you are, but I'm 74 and have been aware of memory problems and confusion of times for some time. According to the Mayo Clinic about 5% to 6% of people with Alzheimer's disease develop symptoms before age 65. The confusion between 11:00 to 11:30 and 12:00 to 12:30, plus the time he closed, and the time the rain stopped all indicate a confusion of details. I have no doubt that he observed the couple where Smith testified, it's the details that he could have confused. Make every endeavour not to get old Jon.....it's the pits.

Cheers, George

Hey George.

Ah, my wife is just a year older than yourself, while I'm 68 and neither of us have any serious memory loss. She can never remember where she put things, hairbrush, keys, etc., but she's been that way all her life. As for me I have a selective memory, I only remember things that interest me. While she can give me a list of places she wants to go shopping, I tend to shut-off, so when that day comes and I ask her (again) where does she want to go, I'll get an earful for not remembering what she said.


Anyway, Packer related his complete story in the London Evening News, it is here in unequivocal terms he sets the time at 11:45 pm when Liz & Co. came to his shop window. The reporter adds "..it will be remembered that the night was very wet..." There was no cause for him to add that detail if it was not true.
They then crossed the road and stood opposite the shop for more than half-an-hour. Packer says it was something like 10 or 15 mins past 12 o'clock. He was estimating the time by when the pubs closed (which was midnight). Packer closed his shop about 12:30am.

[mpriestnall]

It's natural for Packer to keep his shop open until after the pubs close to catch the passing trade from them.

Particularly because;

1. His goods were perishable.
2. He had a poor time selling them earlier in the street/market where ever he was selling them earlier.

It was the A.C.B. / Warren at SY that set his time of closure back which makes them "unreliable" not Packer.