The last witness

[perrymason]

The maroon shawl, which was found in Kelly's room, IS in Maxwell's Inquest deposition, as is something else that relates to Michael's comment that many of MJK's aquaintances called her Mary Jane: Maxwell notes, " I knew the deceased for about four months as Mary Jane."

Hi Paul...all,

Interesting when juxtaposed with the Telegraphs publication of the Inquest on the 13th, and Caroline Maxwell says...

[Coroner] "Did you speak to her ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."

Followed by,...

[Coroner] "And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

Which doesnt really jive with "we only spoke twice" in 4 months, she says it like we always used to see each other round there.

I dont know why she stays so vehement. With the lack of any real exchanges between the two, Caroline does seem to "know" a lot about Mary. Maybe by watching her occassionally, perhaps down the length of her Victorian nose. We can guess that women in Marys line of work were considered immoral by the married and respectable women of the neighbourhoods, yet " Carrie" passes no judgements.

Maybe she wanted to be a part of this...maybe she thought she did speak to Mary Jane Kelly, but the likihood is not, and that is supported by statements and evidence that was not "different" than all the other accounts. Bonds findings arent contradicted by any statements of the courtyard that night, except for the statements of Caroline Maxwell about Friday morning.

Cheers mates.

[Sam Flynn]

Interesting when juxtaposed with the Telegraphs publication of the Inquest on the 13th

...interesting indeed, Mike, especially this bit:

[Coroner] "You knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

"By being about in the lodging-house", eh? We know that Kelly had been living at Miller's Court for much, much longer than the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her. Therefore, shoe-horning speculation apart, how on earth could Maxwell's being "about in the lodging-house" have been a legitimate cause for her being on first-name terms with Kelly, when the latter wasn't "about in any lodging-house" herself?

Had the length of Kelly's tenure at Miller's Court been discussed in any depth at the inquest - which it wasn't - the coroner might well have picked up on this Maxwellian non-sequitur. As it is, and speaking only for myself, it's only now that I'm noticing it.

[perrymason]

...interesting indeed, Mike, especially this bit:

[Coroner] "You knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

"By being about in the lodging-house", eh? We know that Kelly had been living at Miller's Court for much, much longer than the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her. Therefore, shoe-horning speculation apart, how on earth could Maxwell's being "about in the lodging-house" have been a legitimate cause for her being on first-name terms with Kelly, when the latter wasn't "about in any lodging-house" herself?

Had the length of Kelly's tenure at Miller's Court been discussed in any depth at the inquest - which it wasn't - the coroner might well have picked up on this Maxwellian non-sequitur. As it is, and speaking only for myself, it's only now that I'm noticing it.

Hello Sam,

That was my take on it as well, but I did consider that perhaps she was claiming that Mary frequented Lodging Houses on the street...another unproven or unsubstaniated claim, but I gave her that leeway. Still...she does insist there was familarity...despite the 2 hellos in 4 months.

Its odd that she is so strong, in so many contradictory statements.

Cheers my friend.

[miss marple]

indentity

Who ever Caroline Maxwell spoke to, [and I believe she was sincere ]it wasn't Mary Kelly. We know Mary was a tall young woman, taller than average 5.8 and taller than most east end men,The body on the bed is tall. She had a magnificent head of hair. We know she was quiet feisty and got into rows.
So who did Maxwell have an early morning conversation with:
'' A pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion and rather pale.. she spoke with a kind of impediment''
Does that sound like our Mary? Don't think so.
An the thing that really annoys me is people saying Joe Barnett identified Mary by her eyes and ears, he did not. He identified her by her most distinctive feature her hair,' Her eyes and ear' her air in cockney, add an irish lilt you get ear. Being from a cockney background myself I can see how the phonetics were misheard. Barnett was first generation irish brought up in streets full of irish [ I know from the census]so his cockney would have had an irish lilt to it.
We know that there was one other named prostitute called Mary Kelly operating in Spitalfields, at the same time, who had syphillis in 1888.
Cheers Miss Marple

[Observer]

Hi Sam

...interesting indeed, Mike, especially this bit:

[Coroner] "You knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

"By being about in the lodging-house", eh? We know that Kelly had been living at Miller's Court for much, much longer than the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her. Therefore, shoe-horning speculation apart, how on earth could Maxwell's being "about in the lodging-house" have been a legitimate cause for her being on first-name terms with Kelly, when the latter wasn't "about in any lodging-house" herself?

Had the length of Kelly's tenure at Miller's Court been discussed in any depth at the inquest - which it wasn't - the coroner might well have picked up on this Maxwellian non-sequitur. As it is, and speaking only for myself, it's only now that I'm noticing it.

Kelly was a prostitute, and I dare say some of her freinds were also prostitutes. I'd also say that some of them lived in doss houses, who's to say kelly didn't sit with them in the doss's communal kitchen chinwagging?

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Kelly was a prostitute, and I dare say some of her freinds were also prostitutes. I'd also say that some of them lived in doss houses, who's to say kelly didn't sit with them in the doss's communal kitchen chinwagging?

Hi Observer,

That's the problem, though - in order to place Kelly in a doss-house during the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her requires a degree of speculation. At face value, however, her "explanation" for knowing Kelly is very weak.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Observer,

That's the problem, though - in order to place Kelly in a doss-house during the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her requires a degree of speculation. At face value, however, her "explanation" for knowing Kelly is very weak.

I'd agree, very weak indeed.

all the best

Observer

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Mrs Caroline Maxwell was the last witness, who claimed to have seen Mary Jane alive, to repeat myself.
She was interviewed by Abberline,
She was summoned to the inquest.
She was given a chance to have second thoughts by the coroner, yet rejected the offer,
She had her actions of the morning of the 9th checked, and verified, by the Whitechapel police.
Her statement was made on the very same day as the murder.
Yet dispite this, there are many amongst us, that believe this was all a red herring, and this alleged 'Respectable, level headed woman' interpreted either a false account, or was lacking in a ability to understand reality...
The whole crux of the matter is , we [ or most of us] tend to have a vivid picture of the timeline of events back in 1888, and any suggestion that paints a different picture to what has been implanted over the years in our heads, is thrown out, and rejected.
When I started this thread , I suggested that Caroline Maxwell was the last witness to Mary Kellys murder, and I maintain that, which leaves us with what?
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Richard,

She had her actions of the morning of the 9th checked, and verified, by the Whitechapel police.

That only seems to appear in one news report - that of the Times quoted earlier - and it doesn't actually say that the Whitechapel police verified her story. It only says "inquiries were made at the milkshop", or words to that effect. For all we know, Maxwell might have made those enquiries herself ("Don't ask me why, but was it yesterday or the day before I was in 'ere?"), it might have been by press or police. Alternatively, this corroboration might have been completely made up - either by her or by a newshound. The milkshop connection certainly doesn't seem to have been mentioned anywhere else, either in the press, her police statement or at the inquest, which is surprising in the context of the latter, given the controversial nature of her evidence.

It's worth noting that Abberline chipped in to add more detail to Maxwell's spiel twice during the inquest, when he confirmed the distance between Maxwell and her second sighting of Kelly. However, he omitted to interject with details of the alleged "milkshop/shawl" corroboration. Now, if the police had confirmed that story themselves, one would think that the fact would have been presented at that point in the proceedings.

[perrymason]

I had just finished a post that I was proud of and crashed without being able to restore it....but the Readers Digest version goes like this....

The contemporary investigators had some information about witnesses we will never have access to. How they spoke, their body language, sweat, the sound of their voice and particular inflections, mannerisms...and they decided that they wouldnt lose sleep over discarding George Hutchinsons account of Mary arriving home, nor Caroline Maxwells conversation with a woman who by medical opinion was already dead. I dont lose sleep either.

Mary Ann Cox is the last person believed to have seen Mary Jane Kelly alive, at approx 11:45pm November 8th. She is also the witness that provides the last man seen with Mary Jane at that time. Any story that is offered that involves Mary Kelly seen alive after that sighting has been discarded.

I admire your tenacity Richard, but the case on these two has been closed for some time now.

Best regards.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Two things have to be squared at what passed for MJK's inquest.

1. Caroline Maxwell's story—MJK alive at 8.30/9.00 am.

2. Dr. Phillips not offering/being asked for a time of death.

The Coroner/Dr. Phillips could have settled the matter of Mrs Maxwell's story in an instant, but chose not to.

Why?

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Simon,

The Coroner/Dr. Phillips could have settled the matter of Mrs Maxwell's story in an instant, but chose not to.

Why?

Probably because Roderick "Interruptus" Macdonald saw this as irrelevant to the purpose of his inquest. In his own words: "If the coroner's jury can come to a decision as to the cause of death, then that is all that they have to do".

Thank you so much, Dr Macdonald </gritted teeth>

[perrymason]

Hi All,

Two things have to be squared at what passed for MJK's inquest.

1. Caroline Maxwell's story—MJK alive at 8.30/9.00 am.

2. Dr. Phillips not offering/being asked for a time of death.

The Coroner/Dr. Phillips could have settled the matter of Mrs Maxwell's story in an instant, but chose not to.

Why?

Regards,

Simon

At what passed for the Inquest indeed Simon.

Your first point I cant answer as I dont understand them letting her appear with that story for reasons other than fairness, she is the only witness to this event at the Inquest, and maybe for an image of a balanced presentation of "facts"...but on the 2nd, exactly when did Bond do his Postmortem? At the inquest Phillips wrapped up with his point by point description ending with the cause of death, then he was set aside with the promise of further medical evidence at a future hearing...which of course never took place.

There is much that stinks about Millers Court and the farcical 1 day Inquest, but I think also with Caroline and George.

Best regards Simon.

[Natalie Severn]

just to kick off then -

1]Mrs Maxwell confused Mary Kelly with another woman-she referred to her as a little dark woman-we know Mary was 5ft 7ins and had dark blonde or reddish blond hair .Mrs Phoenix who had known her at Breezers Hill, spoke of her as being "fair as a lilly".

2]Dr Phillips was reluctant to confirm a time of death because of the state of Mary"s corpse...it is likely to have cooled more rapidly than would otherwise have been the case.On the other hand nobody was certain how long the fire had burned....all added to the problem.
Cheers Simon
Norma

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

The body in Room 13 Millers Court obviously wasn't a suicide, so your argument makes me wonder why Macdonald bothered with Dr. Phillips at all.

The inquest was a travesty.

Regards,

Simon