The last witness

[paul emmett]

Lets just get this out once and for all, shall we?......If Maxwell did see Mary Kelly alive the morning of November 9th, then she wasnt the body in bed in Room 13 at 1:30pm on November the 9th. Its the only reasonable explanation if she was accurate....and Im loathe to even consider after all Ive read, that it wasnt Mary in that bed.

I feel that this is an important assertion, and I wonder what people think about it. I buy it, but from the few discussions I've had with Richard, I suspect he doesn't.

And while I, too, am loathe, at least relatively loathe, to open this issue, I wonder, Michael, what's your main reason for dismissing the suggestion that the body in the bed isn't MJK? I am conflicted: I tend to believe Caroline, but I believe Michael too. And I know there are tons of reasons why that is the body of MJK. But I guess I just want to be convinced.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Mrs Maxwell's sighting and conversation at 8.30 am doesn't necessarily rule out the body in Room 13 being MJK.

She could have been killed at a later hour. Medical opinion on times of death weren't an exact science in 1888, and Bond may have been way out in his estimation of twelve hours.

But even if it was an exact science, look what happened at Chapman's inquest. Her body was found at around 6.00 am, yet coroner Wynne Baxter preferred Mrs Long's alleged sighting of Annie at 5.30 am to Doctor Phillips' estimated time of death of "two hours, possibly more" before his arrival at 29 Hanbury Street at 6.30 am.

So much for medical opinion.

Regards,

Simon

[sdreid]

TOD is an inexact science even today and likely will be for time to come.

[sdreid]

Just because Mary was out that morning tossing her tuna doesn't mean it all came up either.

[paul emmett]

Bond may have been way out in his estimation of twelve hours.

Hi Simon, sdreid. WAY OUT!! Bond would make it a bit less than an inexact science. Also, if Maxwell did indeed see MJK, doesn't that make it more likely that Lewis did too?

Suppose she did retain some tuna, did she get it at 5:00 a.m.?

[dougie]

Does this report, which ive never seen before (others probabley have) add weight to maxwells tale? two items ...the milk shop visit confirmed, plus the "crossover".

[paul emmett]

That and the other witness seem to add considerable weight to Caroline's "tale."

[perrymason]

Hi Paul,

You asked me a question, sorry for the delay in the reply. Joe Barnett, McCarthy and Bowyer all identified the corpse as Mary Kelly, and the medical opinions on her time of death do not allow for a death at 9:30-10:00am....regardless of whether Bond miscalculated or not. The body he examined had been dead longer than just 3 hours no matter how much you think he was off in his estimate. 3 hours is the absolute earliest for onset of Rigor, the process could take as many as 10-12 hours... and she was in that state when first examined.

Caroline Maxwell spoke to Mary Kelly twice in 4 months, and for all we know it was just "good morning" or "hello". Weighing her opinion that she spoke to Mary, with the positive id's and the medical opinion on time of death and her last meals status in digestion,....Caroline loses.

She is a less credible witness than the people who ID'd Mary, by virtue of her essentially non-existent relationship with the deceased, and her testimony cannot be reconciled with the medical data.

So whats more likely...that Barnett, McCarthy and Bowyer ID'd the wrong woman, or that Maxwell did. I think her introduction to this case says it all.....she was warned that what she was about to say went against all of the other evidence and testimony.

Name another case where a witness account is treated as less than accurate, even before its given under oath.

Did Maxwell mention Marys waist long hair as a means of identifying her or validating her own claim? She says Mary wore no hat....well, what of all that hair? Where was it? How does "She was a young woman who never associated with any one" jive with a woman we know had several close friends, and as Dew said, "she was always in the company of others of her "kind"."

Caroline Maxwell was incorrect,... or Joe Barnett, Thomas Bowyer and Joe McCarthy all lied or were mistaken about the body in the bed in #13. Cause that body had been dead longer than 3 or 3 1/2 hours, and the other residents of the court would be walking past her room while shes being killed, according to Maxwell.

Best regards.

[sdreid]

Assuming this is accurate, I think it adds credence to Maxwell's account and points to the doctor as being incorrect. A doctor in 1888 is about equivalent to an EMT today, if even that.

[paul emmett]

Hello, Michael.

Long time, no . . .. So long that I think we both forgot my question of you. I went back and checked, and my query of a month ago was about the body in the bed. So rigor and all that isn't at issue. It's just Barnett, McCarthy and Hutchinson, not Bowyer, right? On the other side are Maxwell, the unnamed woman from the above post and Maurice Lewis. I think the teams are fairly evenly matched.

Barnett, a practiced judge of ears and eyes; McCarthy, who told at least one reporter that MJK was "cut up beyond recognition"; and Hutchinson, who ....well we all know what most folks, including yourself, think of George. So I think that my point of a while back was that this is not overwhelming evidence. And it's no wonder some people here go with Maxwell.

I hope all is well--no, super well--with you.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Thanks for the well wishes Paul, things are going along swimmingly, and I hope well back at you. I guess we sit on different sides of this fence Paul, although I readily admit that an ID of "'air" and "eyes" by her lover isnt the best we could ask for, he was sure. As to McCarthy, since her recently ex-lover could only identify her by two features, she was basically beyond recognition...as far as he was concerned.

Ive questioned how he could not recognize her hands, or feet, or her calf...parts of her he had seen almost as often as hair and eyes, and that were still undamaged. But thats me questioning being able to identify someone under those circumstances, and Im not Joe Barnett on Nov 9th in Millers Court. He made his call...knowing the importance.

Now, Mrs Maxwell stated on the stand that she would be willing to swear to her statements, and was reminded she was sworn in.....she also mentions that Mary called her "Carrie". Whats the likliehood that 2 chance "how do you do's" in 4 months results in Mary using her nickname? And she called her "Mary"....when we have statements that indicate that many of Marys acquaintance level associates knew her as "Mary Jane".

Its the cumulative issues with Caroline I think, and they do not favour her speaking with the Mary Jane Kelly, declared dead in room 13 of Millers Court at approx 1:30pm November 9th, 1888. Maybe Mary O'Kelly from 16 Dorset St, but not our Mary Jane.

Cheers bud.

[Bob Hinton]

More errors

The problem with using snippets like this is people generally do not read them properly. Maxwell made two statements, one to the police on the day of the murder and the other in court at the inquest. It is these two statements that we must rely and neither of them mentions anything about going to the milk shop.

Also this extract tells us that Maxwell on her return saw Kelly talking to a “short, dark man at the top of the court”.

This directly contradicts both of her previous statements that say quite clearly that she saw Kelly with the man outside the Britannia pub – an entirely different location.

This is the problem with Maxwell, people point to the number of accounts written and somehow try and use that as a proof of accuracy, it isn’t. Repeating an error doesn’t correct it.

[dougie]

Of course the newspaper report may be in error, but its not a case of misreading it,it says what it says.As I said its the first time Ive seen the reference to the milk shop and the crossover (to others maybe its nothing new,I dont know)Was it a "concoction" by the newspaper editor?

[paul emmett]

The maroon shawl, which was found in Kelly's room, IS in Maxwell's Inquest deposition, as is something else that relates to Michael's comment that many of MJK's aquaintances called her Mary Jane: Maxwell notes, " I knew the deceased for about four months as Mary Jane."

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Paul,

The maroon shawl, which was found in Kelly's room...

The only source for the "maroon crossover" having been found in Kelly's room appears to be the Times of 12th November (see Dougie's snippet above), and the story doesn't seem to be corroborated anywhere else. It's possible that the account of Maria Harvey (or "Julia", as the same edition of the Times names her) leaving behind "a pawn ticket for a shawl" at 13 Miller's Court might have been conflated with Maxwell's story, and distorted to the "crossover was found in Kelly's room".