The last witness

[sdreid]

Assuming this is accurate, I think it adds credence to Maxwell's account and points to the doctor as being incorrect. A doctor in 1888 is about equivalent to an EMT today, if even that.

Hi Paul,

You asked me a question, sorry for the delay in the reply. Joe Barnett, McCarthy and Bowyer all identified the corpse as Mary Kelly, and the medical opinions on her time of death do not allow for a death at 9:30-10:00am....regardless of whether Bond miscalculated or not. The body he examined had been dead longer than just 3 hours no matter how much you think he was off in his estimate. 3 hours is the absolute earliest for onset of Rigor, the process could take as many as 10-12 hours... and she was in that state when first examined.

Caroline Maxwell spoke to Mary Kelly twice in 4 months, and for all we know it was just "good morning" or "hello". Weighing her opinion that she spoke to Mary, with the positive id's and the medical opinion on time of death and her last meals status in digestion,....Caroline loses.

She is a less credible witness than the people who ID'd Mary, by virtue of her essentially non-existent relationship with the deceased, and her testimony cannot be reconciled with the medical data.

So whats more likely...that Barnett, McCarthy and Bowyer ID'd the wrong woman, or that Maxwell did. I think her introduction to this case says it all.....she was warned that what she was about to say went against all of the other evidence and testimony.

Name another case where a witness account is treated as less than accurate, even before its given under oath.

Did Maxwell mention Marys waist long hair as a means of identifying her or validating her own claim? She says Mary wore no hat....well, what of all that hair? Where was it? How does "She was a young woman who never associated with any one" jive with a woman we know had several close friends, and as Dew said, "she was always in the company of others of her "kind"."

Caroline Maxwell was incorrect,... or Joe Barnett, Thomas Bowyer and Joe McCarthy all lied or were mistaken about the body in the bed in #13. Cause that body had been dead longer than 3 or 3 1/2 hours, and the other residents of the court would be walking past her room while shes being killed, according to Maxwell.

Best regards.

[paul emmett]

That and the other witness seem to add considerable weight to Caroline's "tale."

[dougie]

Does this report, which ive never seen before (others probabley have) add weight to maxwells tale? two items ...the milk shop visit confirmed, plus the "crossover".

[paul emmett]

Bond may have been way out in his estimation of twelve hours.

Hi Simon, sdreid. WAY OUT!! Bond would make it a bit less than an inexact science. Also, if Maxwell did indeed see MJK, doesn't that make it more likely that Lewis did too?

Suppose she did retain some tuna, did she get it at 5:00 a.m.?

[sdreid]

Just because Mary was out that morning tossing her tuna doesn't mean it all came up either.

[sdreid]

TOD is an inexact science even today and likely will be for time to come.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Mrs Maxwell's sighting and conversation at 8.30 am doesn't necessarily rule out the body in Room 13 being MJK.

She could have been killed at a later hour. Medical opinion on times of death weren't an exact science in 1888, and Bond may have been way out in his estimation of twelve hours.

But even if it was an exact science, look what happened at Chapman's inquest. Her body was found at around 6.00 am, yet coroner Wynne Baxter preferred Mrs Long's alleged sighting of Annie at 5.30 am to Doctor Phillips' estimated time of death of "two hours, possibly more" before his arrival at 29 Hanbury Street at 6.30 am.

So much for medical opinion.

Regards,

Simon

[paul emmett]

Lets just get this out once and for all, shall we?......If Maxwell did see Mary Kelly alive the morning of November 9th, then she wasnt the body in bed in Room 13 at 1:30pm on November the 9th. Its the only reasonable explanation if she was accurate....and Im loathe to even consider after all Ive read, that it wasnt Mary in that bed.

I feel that this is an important assertion, and I wonder what people think about it. I buy it, but from the few discussions I've had with Richard, I suspect he doesn't.

And while I, too, am loathe, at least relatively loathe, to open this issue, I wonder, Michael, what's your main reason for dismissing the suggestion that the body in the bed isn't MJK? I am conflicted: I tend to believe Caroline, but I believe Michael too. And I know there are tons of reasons why that is the body of MJK. But I guess I just want to be convinced.

[Tom_Wescott]

According to Mrs. Maxwell, she'd only spoken to Mary a couple of times and didn't know her too well. However, she'd probably seen her dozens of times, and that's a factor that should have been explored more at the inquest...and would have been had Phillips been running the show.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Suzi]

Hi all-
Yes but just HOW WELL did Caroline Maxwell know Mary?? Sometimes in communities like Dorset St...'knowing well' would have counted as saying hello or maybe tripping over eachother or passing in the street or meeting in a shop/pub etc on occasion..In such a 'close' community I'm sure that everyone 'knew' everyone....some more than like in a 'biblical' sense!!!

I'm sure that this 'knowledge' extended far beyond Dorset St too into Flower and Dean ,Thrawl etc as they obviously all used the common thoroughfares and most certainly common 'watering holes'
Suzi x

Hi All,

Not that it matters, but I'm firmly in the "Mrs Maxwell was telling the truth" camp.

She wasn't summoned to appear at the inquest just to throw a spanner in the works. The police would never have allowed that to happen. Her testimony served a purpose. What we have to do is work out the nature of that purpose.

Regards,

Simon

Im sure that it matters to you Simon.

I do think summoned is a bit strong though, how could they eliminate her testimony if she stated she saw the murder victim the morning of her death? They could only preface her statement with a codicil....in essence, "Jurors, you may believe Mrs Maxwell at your own peril, for her story opposes other statements including Dr Bonds medical findings.

Lets just get this out once and for all, shall we?......If Maxwell did see Mary Kelly alive the morning of November 9th, then she wasnt the body in bed in Room 13 at 1:30pm on November the 9th. Its the only reasonable explanation if she was accurate....and Im loathe to even consider after all Ive read, that it wasnt Mary in that bed.

If it was Mary in the bed, the corpse itself calls Maxwell a liar. The medical evidence regarding her last meal alone is clear. It tells us that her death occurred before Mrs Maxwells statement of her meeting...and it contradicts an account of a woman who vomited a few times that same morning.

Best regards Simon, all.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your post.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're bundling in GH as a truth-teller.

Sorry, but that's where you and I begin to disagree.

Regards,

Simon

[richardnunweek]

Hello Ben,
My Hutchinson tones greatly favour honesty, rather then the negative, and as you proberly are well aware of ,I serve in the camp of Gh , being the father of Reg, and therefore [ in my opinion] was simply relaying a sighting , that he was initially reluctant to relay to the police until the monday evening,
I have mentioned many times, that I dismiss ,that Hutchy was a timewaster. and am one of the few that actually honour the man for his morals.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Simon,
You summed it up my friend , there is no way Caroline Maxwell would have been called to the inquest, to possibly alter police doctors opinions, if it was a load of Bull....
Look at her statement , it was positive, and it was relayed to the top man , ie, Abberline, and are we seriously suggesting that the most important witnesses, convinced him,, when according to many of us they were a couple of oddballs?.
To sum up guys, we simply have to accept , even if it goes against the majority, that the two witnesses debated, are crucial, to the understanding of the Millers court Murder.
Regards Richard