The last witness

[dougie]

Maybe we need to know whether it is at all possible that the estimated time of death COULD have been incorrect, bearing in mind what Stan has mentioned regarding the onset of rigor mortis.....Any pathologists here tonight?
regards

[sdreid]

The onset of rigor mortis can vary quite a bit.

[Chava]

There is so much evidence that Kelly was killed overnight that I find it very hard to believe Maxwell wasn't mistaken. Kelly was an extremely common name, and she may be mixing up two prostitutes who lived in the area and who both were called Mary Kelly or Mary Jane Kelly. By her own admission, she didn't know Kelly beyond the most casual of meetings. I suspect she's mixing up two women with the same name and in the same profession.

[paul emmett]

just how well would she know Marys face, her voice, or her mannerisms?

And Barnett ID's Mary....we can trust his guess much more comfortably than we can Carrie's.

Hi, Michael. They talked and called each other by first names. Maxwell has to be right or lieing.

As for Barnett, he didn't see as much of her as Maxwell did. What can ya tell from ears and eyes?

Does there need to be an ESTABLISHED relationship?One doesnt need to have spoken to someone ever or at all to know who they are.If Kelly was a character or well know n(for whatever reason) in the immediate area then there might have been any number of people whowould be aware of who she was , without ever having spoken with her ,or indeed having had any kind of relationship with her either
regards

What I meant is this Dougie....if Carrie Maxwell had only fleeting communications with a stranger living in her neighborhood over a period of months, had only heard a few words perhaps from this neighbor...' morning....nice day....off to go whoring, catch ya later Maxie....and if it took place across the street, then just how well would she know Marys face, her voice, or her mannerisms?

I dont doubt for a minute her sighting was on the day she said it was, and that she chatted briefly with a woman who was sick from boozing the night before, I know however that it was not Mary Kelly, because she was on her way to Rigor onset in her room. And Barnett ID's Mary....we can trust his guess much more comfortably than we can Carrie's.

As I said, it would appear that the only way Carrie Maxwell saw Mary Jane Kelly of Millers Court on November 9th, 1888, is if the woman in the bed examined from 1:30pm on isnt really Mary Kelly.

The id of her lover....vs a neighbor she said hi to twice in 4-6 months? Which id seems more substantial?

Cheers.

[dougie]

Does there need to be an ESTABLISHED relationship?One doesnt need to have spoken to someone ever or at all to know who they are.If Kelly was a character or well know n(for whatever reason) in the immediate area then there might have been any number of people whowould be aware of who she was , without ever having spoken with her ,or indeed having had any kind of relationship with her either
regards

Hi Richard,

You know me, I dont see any harm in exploring a myriad of possibilities when it comes to trying to assess who to listen to, or why,....so thats why I dont go all Norder or Wescott on ya ....but in this case we dont even have a credible start point, that being an established relationship between the women. We dont even know how close she ever was to Mary...physically and socially. Mary's friends certainly never mentioned her....she states that she has only said "hello" twice before....from how far away...a wave across the street? Do we know if Carrie was nearsighted/farsighted?

She is hardly an authority on what Mary Jane looks like or what her voice sounds like. We cant trust that evidence unless it can be supported by statements of the witnesses that we know knew her, and the physical examination of the body that afternoon. And it isnt.

Best regards.

[celee]

Hi,

I feel this thread is a real good concept and could have some good value. So, who was the last witness to see Mary Kelly alive? Was it Mary Cox or George Hutchinson? Perhapes it was Sarah Lewis? The last witness to see Kelly alive may have been a person, a woman, never discussed before.

Your friend, Brad

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
I started this thread simply because I had to consider Mrs Maxwell as possibly being the last person to have come foreward with an identification of the deseased named as Mjk[ alias Davies] even if it went against medical reports.
I am fully aware that a certain Maurice Lewis, also gave a press account of two sightings of our Mary that morning , but I must stress these were press reports, not a official police statement.
I find it hard to accept the fact that Maxwell [ if she had her full mind] could make such a statement on the very same day, as the body was discovered, and be so adamant..
Summing up.
Was Maxwell a attention seeker?
Was She mistaken on the day she had the alleged converation with the deseased.?
If she had any reservations that she may have been mistaken, by either the wrong person , or the wrong day, why did she not [ having ample opportunety] just say so?
The maxwell account like it or not, is one of the most crucial clues in the Millers court murder, but we still cannot accept a later murder, simply because of previous books opinions, and a solid believe in somewhat dubious medical reports going back to 1888...
The Best .
Richard.

I think the thread premise is a good one... however I think some of the conclusions you make Richard aren't,.. with respect to Caroline Maxwell, George Hutchinson, and his suspect.

As Bob pointed out early on...there is no reason to suggest that speaking only twice to someone...from an unknown distance, over the course of 4-6 months, qualifies her as even a passing acquaintance of Marys, and she is therefore not someone who could be considered an infallible witness regarding Mary Kelly. The easiest way to assess her statement however, is to do the math. If Maxwell saw Mary, then she is not killed until after 9am, maybe later. The body that was in bed at 1:30pm had rigor onset, and it increased during the exam. Her statement is at odds with the medical data.

We dont know who she saw, or when it actually was, only that it almost certainly wasnt Mary Kelly on the morning of November 9th, 1888. There is only one way Caroline could be accurate...If she saw Mary at the date and time specified, and someone else is already dead in Marys bed,... because the medical evidence suggests that the woman examined at 1:30 had been dead for a minimum of 4 hours, but maybe as many as 8 hours.

So now you have a hungover Mary just wandering around, oblivious to the fact someone is cut to pieces in her room.If your going to suggest a conspiracy, at least have Mary in on it, rather than stumbling around vomiting.

Because Caroline Maxwells account is only accurate if the woman in the bed at 1:30pm isnt Mary Kelly.....but gets identified as her by her lover, her landlord, Bowyer, and anyone else who actually knew her... well.

The last man seen with Mary Jane Kelly is still the same man its been since November 16th, 1888....Blotchy Faced Man, seen by Mary Ann Cox at approx 11:45pm on November 8th, entering Marys room with her.

Best regards.

[paul emmett]

I'll play along. Suppose the body is not Kelly's. Outside of escape from royal persecution , do Joe and Mary have anything practical to gain by not correcting this mistake?

Hello, Barnaby.

I'll play along too, although I am anxious to see what Simon would say. I'd start with MJK's rapid fall from grace, from the west side to the east, to suggest something was amiss. Too bad she did not like the part in France. Was she, I wonder, financed ahead of time? And then there's Mccarthy. It's not that she would need to bolt to escape the arrears, but the more I read on old John, the more I am uncertian about the kind of web MJK might have been trapped in in Miller's Ct. McCarthy doesn't seem like a man you'd want to owe your soul to.

We can, of course, only speculate, but at least these possibilities don't entail any Dukes.

[Jon Guy]

And she did know MJK,
Now don’t you think that if that did happen somebody would have seen her? What about the customers in the pub? What about the person who served her the drink? What about the people standing next to her? It is physically impossible for all that to happen and no-one sees her.

Hi Bob

Good points raised,but whomever Maxwell thought was Kelly that morning also seems to have disappeared.

[Barnaby]

Hi All,

One question we cannot avoid is—

What are the consequences of Caroline Maxwell being right?

Regards,

Simon

I'll play along. Suppose the body is not Kelly's. Outside of escape from royal persecution , do Joe and Mary have anything practical to gain by not correcting this mistake?

[paul emmett]

My argument is therefore, unless Mrs Maxwell is drained of intelligence, her statement should be very much considered, and this being the case then that witness, actually saw a possible suspect in 'Market porter' and if one takes that possibility, then a morning murder [ after 9am ] is very much 'on'
Regards Richard.

Hi, Richard. I know we have "discussed" this before because I like Maxwell, but not a later killing because of the fish and the fire and the mutilations and the Doctors and the time. But let me add just one more reason that is most relevant to this thread. It's hard for Maxwell to be the last witness because if she saw MJK, it seems logical that Lewis did too. And that sighting would, in turn, make the time frame even more unlikely.

[richardnunweek]

Thanks everyone,
For at least discussing what is a valid point, ie.. 'The last witness'
Bob, has the belief that I have raised this thread to enhance my theory, to which I ask 'What Theory Bob?.
I have always on Casebook stood by my conviction 'Joseph Barnet number one suspect' but this thread is not about that individual, it is about the last named witness, in the last [assumed] Whitechapel murder, that being Mrs Caroline Maxwell, who swears on oath at Mjks Inquest that she spoke to the already dead woman...which medical opinion suggested, ...this is obviously impossible, but she was adamant dispite warning from the coroner that her evidence was not acceptable to medical reports.
My argument is therefore, unless Mrs Maxwell is drained of intelligence, her statement should be very much considered, and this being the case then that witness, actually saw a possible suspect in 'Market porter' and if one takes that possibility, then a morning murder [ after 9am ] is very much 'on'
Regards Richard.