The last witness

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
I started this thread simply because I had to consider Mrs Maxwell as possibly being the last person to have come foreward with an identification of the deseased named as Mjk[ alias Davies] even if it went against medical reports.
I am fully aware that a certain Maurice Lewis, also gave a press account of two sightings of our Mary that morning , but I must stress these were press reports, not a official police statement.
I find it hard to accept the fact that Maxwell [ if she had her full mind] could make such a statement on the very same day, as the body was discovered, and be so adamant..
Summing up.
Was Maxwell a attention seeker?
Was She mistaken on the day she had the alleged converation with the deseased.?
If she had any reservations that she may have been mistaken, by either the wrong person , or the wrong day, why did she not [ having ample opportunety] just say so?
The maxwell account like it or not, is one of the most crucial clues in the Millers court murder, but we still cannot accept a later murder, simply because of previous books opinions, and a solid believe in somewhat dubious medical reports going back to 1888...
The Best .
Richard.

[celee]

Hi,

I feel this thread is a real good concept and could have some good value. So, who was the last witness to see Mary Kelly alive? Was it Mary Cox or George Hutchinson? Perhapes it was Sarah Lewis? The last witness to see Kelly alive may have been a person, a woman, never discussed before.

Your friend, Brad

[perrymason]

Hi Richard,

You know me, I dont see any harm in exploring a myriad of possibilities when it comes to trying to assess who to listen to, or why,....so thats why I dont go all Norder or Wescott on ya ....but in this case we dont even have a credible start point, that being an established relationship between the women. We dont even know how close she ever was to Mary...physically and socially. Mary's friends certainly never mentioned her....she states that she has only said "hello" twice before....from how far away...a wave across the street? Do we know if Carrie was nearsighted/farsighted?

She is hardly an authority on what Mary Jane looks like or what her voice sounds like. We cant trust that evidence unless it can be supported by statements of the witnesses that we know knew her, and the physical examination of the body that afternoon. And it isnt.

Best regards.

[dougie]

Does there need to be an ESTABLISHED relationship?One doesnt need to have spoken to someone ever or at all to know who they are.If Kelly was a character or well know n(for whatever reason) in the immediate area then there might have been any number of people whowould be aware of who she was , without ever having spoken with her ,or indeed having had any kind of relationship with her either
regards

[perrymason]

Does there need to be an ESTABLISHED relationship?One doesnt need to have spoken to someone ever or at all to know who they are.If Kelly was a character or well know n(for whatever reason) in the immediate area then there might have been any number of people whowould be aware of who she was , without ever having spoken with her ,or indeed having had any kind of relationship with her either
regards

What I meant is this Dougie....if Carrie Maxwell had only fleeting communications with a stranger living in her neighborhood over a period of months, had only heard a few words perhaps from this neighbor...' morning....nice day....off to go whoring, catch ya later Maxie....and if it took place across the street, then just how well would she know Marys face, her voice, or her mannerisms?

I dont doubt for a minute her sighting was on the day she said it was, and that she chatted briefly with a woman who was sick from boozing the night before, I know however that it was not Mary Kelly, because she was on her way to Rigor onset in her room. And Barnett ID's Mary....we can trust his guess much more comfortably than we can Carrie's.

As I said, it would appear that the only way Carrie Maxwell saw Mary Jane Kelly of Millers Court on November 9th, 1888, is if the woman in the bed examined from 1:30pm on isnt really Mary Kelly.

The id of her lover....vs a neighbor she said hi to twice in 4-6 months? Which id seems more substantial?

Cheers.

[paul emmett]

just how well would she know Marys face, her voice, or her mannerisms?

And Barnett ID's Mary....we can trust his guess much more comfortably than we can Carrie's.

Hi, Michael. They talked and called each other by first names. Maxwell has to be right or lieing.

As for Barnett, he didn't see as much of her as Maxwell did. What can ya tell from ears and eyes?

[Chava]

There is so much evidence that Kelly was killed overnight that I find it very hard to believe Maxwell wasn't mistaken. Kelly was an extremely common name, and she may be mixing up two prostitutes who lived in the area and who both were called Mary Kelly or Mary Jane Kelly. By her own admission, she didn't know Kelly beyond the most casual of meetings. I suspect she's mixing up two women with the same name and in the same profession.

[sdreid]

The onset of rigor mortis can vary quite a bit.

[dougie]

Maybe we need to know whether it is at all possible that the estimated time of death COULD have been incorrect, bearing in mind what Stan has mentioned regarding the onset of rigor mortis.....Any pathologists here tonight?
regards

[dougie]

What I meant is this Dougie....if Carrie Maxwell



The id of her lover....vs a neighbor she said hi to twice in 4-6 months? Which id seems more substantial?

Cheers.

hi perry,
Well theres no doubt whos testimony would appear to be more substantial.....but stranger things have happened...and yes i take your point.
regards

[Chava]

Fish and chip shops don't open for breakfast...

[sdreid]

Brunch?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

Fish and chip shops don't open for breakfast...

I'm not so sure that they wouldn't have back in the Late Victorian Period. Fried fish was a popular and cheap food at that time, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a demand for it at the strangest hours.

[dougie]

I just had a mental picture of Mary Kelly entering one of these premises on the morning of her murder ,sniffing the air, licking her lips and uttering the poignant words ....Ahhhhh....soles!
regards

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

Yes, fried fish was a popular food at the time, but Jack wasn't codding.

Regards,

Simon