Prater/Lewis/Hutchinson/Cox

[Ben]

Hi WM,

I've wondered about that. I'd say it's quite possible that Hutchinson attended the inquest in person, learned of Lewis' evidence, realized he'd been seen at 2:30am on the night of the murder and came forward with an "I was there because..." explanation. Either that or he joined the crowds outside Shoreditch Town Hall and simply noticed Lewis there, or read "Mrs. Kennedy's" account in the evening papers. Mrs. Kennedy had apparently heard Lewis' evidence herself and tried to "Chinese Whisper" it off as her own experiences to reporters from The Star.

The last mentioned highlights another possibility; word of mouth. If Lewis' account had reached Mrs. Kennedy's ears, it must have reached others', Hutchinson included.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Chapman Murder, man seen by Mrs Fiddymont:
"The man was rather thin, about 5ft. 8in. high, and apparently between 40 and 50 years of age. He had a shabby genteel look, pepper and salt trowsers which fitted badly, and dark coat."
Lloyds Weekly, Sept 9th, 1888.

Eddowes murder, man seen at Church Passage by Lawende"
A MAN, age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.
Police Gazette, Oct. 19th, 1888

Kelly murder, man seen by Sarah Lewis:
He was not a tall man. He had a black moustache and was very pale. He had on a round hat, a brown overcoat, a black undercoat, and "pepper and salt" trousers. Witness could not say where he went to, but on Friday morning about 2:30 she saw him again, speaking to a woman in Commercial-street, but he was dressed a little differently.
The Times, Nov. 13th, 1888

[Marlowe]

Ben is wrong. Mrs Kennedy saw Mary Kelly with the EXACT same person that Hutchinson described in his statement. Hutch merely gave a more precise description (and a bit of an upgrade...hmm)...for some curious reason. Both descriptions are nearly identical, however. If I get the time...I'll prove it.

[Ben]

Astonishing how Marlowe chimes in whenever Mrs. Kennedy is mentioned.

"Mrs. Kennedy" was clearly not a legitimate witness, but rather someone who had learned of Sarah Lewis' evidence and tried to pass it off as her own. A reporter from The Star who tried to interview the Miller's Court witnesses was alarmed to discover women resorting to precisely that tactic. No surprise then that Lewis was called to testify at the inquest but Mrs. "Kennedy" was not.

Even if we take absolutely everything at face value and assume that Hutchinson was a paragon of truthful virtue and "Mrs. Kennedy" was also an honest witness whose actions "just happened" to mirror those of Mrs. Kennedy almost precisely (and pigs are hovering over glaciers in hell, and all the rest of it), their two respective "suspects" cannot possibly have been the same person, as they would need to be in two places at the same time.

[Sam Flynn]

I reckon Mrs Kennedy and Sarah Lewis were one and the same.

[Marlowe]

The fact is Ben, you don't know anything about the inquest -- why it was shortened, or why one person was called and not another, or how or when Hutchinson decided to come forward. You have no idea if a witness like Mrs Kennedy was honest or not. The point is, and you cannot dispute this, that Mrs Kennedy gave the same description that Hutchinson gave because they were both describing the same man. Fact.

Your original position months ago, was that Kennedy and Sarah Lewis were the same person. Your latest theory, after being proven wrong, is that Kennedy was just repeating what Lewis had said. And when I find the time, I'll prove you wrong on that, too. I chime in when your BS crosses a certain line. Sorry, I can't help it, I'm weird like that. :-)

[Ben]

The fact is Ben, you don't know anything about the inquest -- why it was shortened, or why one person was called and not another, or how or when Hutchinson decided to come forward.

Right, because it's all a grandiose conspiracy, and only you are permitted to arrive at any sort of conclusions from the evidence. Righty-ho.

Of course we don't know for certain why certain things happened, but we can make logical deductions and discuss them like adults. A Star reporter specifically bemoaned the fact that certain women were passing off genuine Miller's Court witness accounts as their own, and then - astonishing coincidence - we find that Mrs. Kennedy's account just happened to mirror Sarah Lewis's almost precisely. Gosh, you don't suppose that Mrs. Kennedy just might have been one of the individuals the reporter was talking about, and that she didn't appear at the inquest for that reason?

What's the alternative - two seperate entites just happen to do precisely the same thing on precisely the same night, and hear and see exactly the same things?

The point is, and you cannot dispute this, that Mrs Kennedy gave the same description that Hutchinson gave because they were both describing the same man. Fact

I don't know if it's Troll o'clock or you're just trying to antagonize or what, but I'd usually advise studying the ripper case properly from the beginning before latching on obsessively to one specific detail from one murder.

[Marlowe]

Ben, your above post is typical of your message board style. It's nothing to be proud of. I'll ignore your tone and cut you some slack -- this time. Kennedy and Lewis say vastly different things. For example, Kennedy says she saw Kelly with the man described by Hutchinson. Lewis never says this. How can Kennedy be accused of stealing the words of Lewis when Lewis never said those words?

[Ben]

Simple, Marlowe.

Kennedly learns of Lewis' evidence.

Kennedy tries to pass Lewis' account off as her own, in the manner described by the reporter.

Kennedy mangles Lewis' original account in the re-telling.

For example, Kennedy says she saw Kelly with the man described by Hutchinson.

Mrs. Kennedy never said any such thing, as I'm sure you're fully aware.

[Marlowe]

You're not much of a gambler, are you Ben? I set you up. Of course Kennedy said that or I wouldn't have wrote that she did. I don't have time tonight, but I'll post up some stuff when I'm free.

[Ben]

So next time you're free, you'll be posting a contemporary account from Mrs. Kennedy in which she claims to have seen "Kelly" in the company of "the man described by Hutchinson"?

Can't wait.

[Marlowe]

This is the point where I usually say, "would you like to make a little wager?", and I then hear..GULP...

So yes, you can bet on it....

[Wickerman]

With regard to the identity of Mrs Kennedy & Sarah Lewis, has anyone considered they were sisters?
They both mention going to the first house in Millers Court, opposite the room where Mary Kelly lived. They both mention some escapade on the previous Wednesday, where Mrs Kennedy says she was in Bethnal-green-rd with her sister. Sarah Lewis says she was in Bethnal-green-rd with another woman.

The suggestion that Kennedy and Lewis may be the same person is not new, and if Mrs Kennedy visited her mother at the house opposite Kelly's room, yet Sarah Lewis visited Mrs Keyler at No. 2 Millers-ct (which is opposite Kelly's room), and they both sat in a chair and dosed, they could be the same woman. Sarah Lewis might be the maiden name of Mrs Kennedy, who's mother may have remarried to become Mrs Keyler.
I would have thought our resident geneologists would have layed this issue to rest a long time ago.

However, as Sarah Lewis said she was with another woman on Wednesday, yet Mrs Kennedy says she was with her sister, it is quite possible that Kennedy and Lewis were both present and saw what they have individually reported, because they were sisters?

[Marlowe]

Wickerman,

I once thought it possible they were sisters as well, but there are good reasons to believe they were not. Just as there are good reasons to believe they were not the same person.

But, even if they were, the point is still a very important one: that a woman saw Mary Kelly with a man, who by description, shares at least 12 points in common with the man described by George Hutchinson.

Now, this doesn't mean that Hutch was telling the truth, but it puts an end to the theory that he invented this man out of thin air.

[Ben]

Hi WM,

The problem with the "sisters" scenario is that their actions mirrored eachother so closely on the night in question, but neither of them mentioned the other, or a sister. Both heard "Oh Murder", both decided to crash at #2 Miller's Court after walking there on miserable night in the small hours, and both "did not retire" immediately but decided to doze in a chair. It's all just a bit too coincidental that they both decided, independently, to do almost precisely the same thing and hear/see precisely the same events.

I'd say there are two viable options. Gareth mentioned one of them; that Lewis and Kennedy were the same person. Then there's the possibility I advanced earlier; that Kennedy was simply "Chinese Whispering" Lewis' account and passing it off as her own experiences. The Star of 10th November bemoaned this practice:

The desire to be interesting has had its effect on the people who live in the Dorset-street-court and lodging-houses, and for whoever cares to listen there are a hundred highly circumstantial stories, which, when carefully sifted, prove to be totally devoid of truth. One woman (as reported below) who lives in the court stated that at about two o'clock she heard a cry of "Murder." This story soon became popular, until at last half a dozen women were retailing it as their own personal experience.

A better explanation for "Mrs. Kennedy" would, I suggest, be hard to come by.

Best regards,
Ben