Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Michael W Richards]

Perfect post, Dave.

Schwartz has most probably witnessed the first action of the murder.

He bolted, and BSM dispatched Liz (and got away).

If it happened at 12:45, as Schwartz has estimated, Liz was dead for at least 10 minutes when Diemshutz arrived.

Cheers

And this fellow is supposedly the Ripper? In 15 minutes he could have emptied her. And lets not forget that whomever killed Stride did not leave via the gates after 12:50.....boy, people like the timing to be like it was staged. Enter Morris, enter Eagle, exit Liz,....all leaving the stage empty at precisely the right time for the next performer.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Spooner stated the blood was flowing when he arrived and that PC Lamb arrived about 5 min after him.

You see, I have problems with this...According to most of the pathology references I've checked on, If you sever someone's carotid artery and do it properly, the rate of bleeding is pretty rapid - it gushes, and likely the majority of it occurs in the first minute to two minutes...I even found one account which said thirty seconds...

If you fudge it, and just nick the artery, then yes, bleed out takes longer...but the blood doesn't just gush out, it squirts in a fine but concentrated spray and typically travels quite long distances, until bleed out occurs...

With arterial bleeding, blood doesn't just flow, or ooze, or trickle, during life...only at the very end, at or after death...blood in the wound itself might appear to ooze when still, or trickle if the body were touched or any pressure was applied...there might be some slight flow, if for example, the head were raised or otherwise disturbed...

Spooner simply can't have arrived at the scene early enough to witness arterial bleeding...it simply isn't physically possible...Diemschutz has found the body (notice he isn't soaked in arterial blood either), gone indoors, told the gathering what he's seen, and various jews have sdubsequently rushed off to seek help. Spooner, down outside the Beehive encountered two of them who explained to him (after having run as far as Grove Street before turning back), and made his way back to the club with them...It's been so long that bleeding must by then have ceased, but Spooner reports that as he lifted up the chin, blood was still flowing from the wound...I'd guess he's seeing blood that he's himself disturbed by lifting the chin and opening the wound.

The fact that the arterial bleed out was well over is verified by PC Lamb's testimony - some of the blood at the scene was liquid, and some congealed (suggesting quite a long bleedout and incidentally confirming Dr Blackwell's testimony) but he also suggests that he wouldn't like to say the victim was still bleeding and if there was any it was slight...

I've paraphrased the evidence, but it's all in the Times 3rd October account of the re-opened Inquest, and it's quoted in the JtR Sourcebook between Pages 160 and 164.

As DVV surmises, what I'm trying to say is that I can't find anything in the medical evidence to preclude BS Man being the killer, whether he's in the act when Schwartz sees him, or whether he completes the job shortly afterwards...

What I do see, incidentally, in the same accounts are some interesting timing discrepancies between the witnesses, but these, as I said earlier, may be tackled separately.

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

And this fellow is supposedly the Ripper? In 15 minutes he could have emptied her. And lets not forget that whomever killed Stride did not leave via the gates after 12:50.....boy, people like the timing to be like it was staged. Enter Morris, enter Eagle, exit Liz,....all leaving the stage empty at precisely the right time for the next performer.

Hi Michael

How ironic...who said he's the Ripper? I'd have thought you'd be the last person to jump to that sort of conclusion!

Conversely, as regards the timings, I'd be the last person to suggest it all ran like clockwork...there are, in fact, enough witness timing discrepancies to drive a bus, never mind Diemschutz's Cart through...

But as I emphasiised, I was primarily looking at the Medical evidence...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

If you fudge it, and just nick the artery, then yes, bleed out takes longer...but the blood doesn't just gush out, it squirts in a fine but concentrated spray and typically travels quite long distances, until bleed out occurs...

Though the doctors do say there was no evidence of spray, and Blackwell does say the artery was not completely severed. So it should have sprayed, but she also wore a scarf which, because it was frayed by the knife, must have been almost over the wound, and as a result may have limited the spray?

The wound did not spray due to the scarf, and only bled out slowly after the initial release of pressure?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

My take on it is that whilst logically the scarf might have restricted the spray, and soaked up some of the blood, Blackwell is careful to say that none of the clothing is stained...he does say the lower edge of the scarf is frayed, but significantly doesn't mention it being stained (Nor does Bagster-Phillips later)...and having said that bleedout was "comparatively" slow, he later goes on to mention a minute and a half...presumably he's one of the medics who favours thirty seconds for a fast bleedout!

The blood appeared to have run down the road, presumably with considerable vigour, as it had gone quite a way down a gulley into a drain...

If I've understood Blackwell's evidence properly, the lower border of the scarf (a black and white checked silk kerchief) defined the top of the incision...it had been pulled up tightly (the knot on the left side was tight and the incision was 2 1/2 inches below the angle of the jaw). The left carotid was nearly severed and the windpipe cut in two...so yes while both arteries weren't opened one certainly was...the odds against there still being arterial bleedout when Spooner arrived have, therefore, to be nil...

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

There is also the issue of clots in the bleed-out-time mix, how does that affect the flow rate? There was a statement suggesting a very large clot of blood found in that gutter.

Cheers folks

ps Dave, sorry if it felt like I was holding you accountable for the Ripper assumption, its just that your cut time is reasonable.. and a Ripper with a dying woman on the ground and perhaps 15 minutes to do some ripping not ripping doesnt. Its the nasty interruption theory that Im addressing really.

Most reasonable people would conclude that if the killer of Polly and Annie killed again we would see at least some mutilations, particularly if the evidence shows us there was additional time. No-one stated that they entered the gates and the passageway between 12:45 and 1am....so, it would appear there was time. The lack of interest shown the body after the cut is pretty suggestive we do not have the same man here.

Oddly, if Diemshitz did arrive earlier than he said he did, as Ive suggested, there would be fodder for an interruption theory and hence room for Jack to be the culprit, but even the Ripper advocates fight me on that....despite the fact it would enhance their own argument.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

I'm looking myself towards a 12.45 approx killing...like you, I see as many, if not more witnesses compatible with that time than there are to a later time...particularly if what Schwartz saw was the murder or beginning of it...I certainly think there's nothing in the medical evidence to particularly preclude it.

I suspect that's where we'll differ, because I believe you see Schwartz as a handy plant (must admit I was initially cynical about him myself, but for various he's grown on me), whilst I'm now veering towards his being the Met's mystery witness...

I think the Jews in the Club were, on the whole, too panic stricken to come up with any fiendish plot...I don't even think Diemschitz necessarily got his timing wrong, (though I suppose it's possible - there are suggestions vide for example Abraham Hoshberg) - but I'm certainly prepared to believe no interruption took place...hence no mutilation despite a time gap of 10 to 15 minutes...or for that matter that an interruption did take pace but was earlier....I've nothing really invested either way...

I think a large part of the time Fanny Mortimer was looking out, Liz Stride was dead and laying in the shadows...when Goldstein whizzed past I think Liz Stride was laying dead in the shadows...and I don't think anything Wess or Eagles say actually precludes this either...

All the best

Dave

[DVV]

Mission impossible

What for? To determine or narrow down the range of time Stride's throat could've been cut. I am not attempting to absolve "BSM" of possibly killing Stride. Trying to determine as close as possible the time she was cut. And you know "what for" the reason for doing such is, don't you, know what for?

I know that in 2013 no expert can make a more precise estimation.
That's an impossible task, Dig.
It's now up to each of us to believe Schwartz or not, to choose between "disturbed by Diemshutz" and "afraid that Lipski would summon a policeman".
Personally, I vote for the latter.

Cheers

[DVV]

when Goldstein whizzed past I think Liz Stride was laying dead in the shadows...
Dave

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo DVV

I know that in 2013 no expert can make a more precise estimation.
That's an impossible task, Dig.
It's now up to each of us to believe Schwartz or not, to choose between "disturbed by Diemshutz" and "afraid that Lipski would summon a policeman".
Personally, I vote for the latter.

Cheers

That seems quite the reasonable conclusion. You knowing does not exclude the possibility that one in this unholy year could provide any insight and useful expertise into the the murder of Elizabeth Stride. Impossibilities function as a restriction. To say, one can not know because one was not there. That's bollocks. I'm simply saying that an expert's analyses , with what data we have, might remove one minute from the timefame. It may not make any difference to some, but the more accurate we are the less room for error exists. I think I'm really starting to miss PhilH now.

[DVV]

I think I'm really starting to miss PhilH now.

Don't tell. I'm shedding tears.
Bet you he will be back soon, though. (I foresee him splitting new hair in my crystal ball.)

I personally miss Sam Flynn, AP, Nats, Linda, and many more.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

A shame

I never had the pleasure as I am a rather recent addition to the collective. I am very appreciative of my inclusion into this endeavour. Thanks everybody.

[caz]

Hi caz,

You do have a way of making a case for a Ripper in this murder in particular seem like the obvious choice, hence my statement. And I dont recall Fanny stating that she went back inside at 12:56...like you said above, she saw Goldstein at 12:55-56 and was at the door until 1am.

And if Fanny referred to her time at the door as "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50, (when she spends the next 10 minutes consecutively at the door), why would you assume she wasnt at the door at a viable time to see either Liz Stride, the alledged Broadshouldered Man, or the Pipeman for that matter?

Hi Mike,

Apologies for the long delay in replying.

I don't think I even mentioned the ripper in the post which you address here. But no matter. Firstly, Fanny Mortimer estimated that she had been indoors for four minutes when she heard what she believed to be Louis Diemshitz's pony and cart going past and mentioned the fact to her husband. Diemshitz said he arrived at the yard at 1am. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest that either Diemshitz or the Mortimers were lying or totally mistaken about this, so you'd have to twist what evidence there is in order to argue otherwise. Your choice, but it wouldn't be mine.

Secondly, I assume Mortimer wasn't at her door at a viable time (or position) to see Stride, BS man, Pipeman or Stride's killer (if someone else) because she herself said she saw none of the above! We know for a fact that Stride didn't fall into Berner St from the sky and that somebody attacked her, so Mortimer missed the main action one way or another.

Schwartz says he approached people on the street in front of the gates engaged in a tussle...did the 3 of them just magically appear there at just the right time to be missed by Fanny, popping in and out? Isnt the more rational answer that if Schwartz was telling the truth at least 2 of the main characters in his story would have been out on the street as Schwartz approached, both before and after 12:45? Lets say we have a 2 minute window on either side of Israels timing to allow for the characters in his story to be hanging about in view. PC Smith saw Liz on the street at 12:35....did Fanny miss seeing all these people suddenly arrive after 12:35, even though her statement seems to indicate that she would have spent some time during that 15 minute segment until 12:50 viewing the street?

Look Mike, I only know that Stride was there; someone murdered her with a single cut to the throat; and Mortimer saw nothing untoward. I happily leave it to you to figure out the exact timings of the various potential witnesses and to judge their reliability, and reach your own conclusions.

Summary? If Israel Schwartz told the truth then Fanny would have had to miss seeing any of the people in his story even though she spent some time at the door when they allegedly were in the street.

And if Schwartz was perjuring himself for the good of the club, everyone involved was jolly lucky that a dozen Fannies didn't all come forward to swear they had been peeking through their curtains the whole time and saw nothing of the sort.

Im sure you would rather not rely on magical appearances or unsubstantiated statements by anyone here caz.

That's a bit rich, if I may say so Mike. You want Diemshitz to have made a magical appearance some fifteen minutes earlier than the evidence indicates, and not to have been seen or heard by Mortimer at that time. Then you want him to have put the 'fluence on Mortimer so she magically heard a ghostly pony and cart at a time to fit in with his own story. You could be the next Susan Hill.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Heres my response Caz;

C: I don't think I even mentioned the ripper in the post which you address here. But no matter. Firstly, Fanny Mortimer estimated that she had been indoors for four minutes when she heard what she believed to be Louis Diemshitz's pony and cart going past and mentioned the fact to her husband. Diemshitz said he arrived at the yard at 1am. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest that either Diemshitz or the Mortimers were lying or totally mistaken about this, so you'd have to twist what evidence there is in order to argue otherwise. Your choice, but it wouldn't be mine.

Ive pointed out Caz that there are in fact statements that contradict Louis's story and timing, at least 3 provided within 1 hour of the murder. I dont know of any that contradicts Mortimers other than the fact she is at her door until 1am and doesnt see or hear a cart and horse, which supposedly arrives at 1.

C: Secondly, I assume Mortimer wasn't at her door at a viable time (or position) to see Stride, BS man, Pipeman or Stride's killer (if someone else) because she herself said she saw none of the above! We know for a fact that Stride didn't fall into Berner St from the sky and that somebody attacked her, so Mortimer missed the main action one way or another.

Thats called wishful thinking I believe, in the hope that this Israel Schwartz fellow was actually on the level. Which isnt substantiated at the Inquest. Fanny didnt just miss all the action Caz....its far more probable that there was far less to see than we have been told.

C: Look Mike, I only know that Stride was there; someone murdered her with a single cut to the throat; and Mortimer saw nothing untoward. I happily leave it to you to figure out the exact timings of the various potential witnesses and to judge their reliability, and reach your own conclusions.

Thats fair, and since I have statements that support an earlier arrival by Diemshitz and the knowledge that he is in deep do-do when a women is murdered on a club he is the steward of, which gives him a motive for modifying his story to exonerate the club, I can make some sensible guesses.

C: And if Schwartz was perjuring himself for the good of the club, everyone involved was jolly lucky that a dozen Fannies didn't all come forward to swear they had been peeking through their curtains the whole time and saw nothing of the sort.

True, but on that street the club was a frequent source of noise and "low men" after meetings in that yard...I suppose most of the residents wanted nothing to do with anything on the street in front of the club near 1am...or were sleeping themselves.

C: That's a bit rich, if I may say so Mike. You want Diemshitz to have made a magical appearance some fifteen minutes earlier than the evidence indicates, and not to have been seen or heard by Mortimer at that time. Then you want him to have put the 'fluence on Mortimer so she magically heard a ghostly pony and cart at a time to fit in with his own story. You could be the next Susan Hill.

You constantly omit the fact that we have witnesses, within 1 hour of 1am, telling the police then the press that they were summoned to the passageway about 10 minutes after half past 12. It is believed by many that Louis says that he and Isaac Kozebrodski left together after 1am.....so why then does Isaac say he left alone at Louis's insistence soon after he arrived in the passageway, about 10 minutes after half past 12?.? And we have Fanny statement to inform us that if he had arrived before 12:45 its possible she wasnt at her door....she was there off and on until 12:50, the steadily from 12:50 until 1.

Frankly Caz youre just ignoring information so you can remain convinced of whatever your beliefs are....Im sure something like a single killer of 50 over 10 years or the like.

Cheers

[drstrange169]

"... we have witnesses, within 1 hour of 1am, telling the police ... that they were summoned to the passageway about 10 minutes after half past 12."

That's something I'd love to see!
If police reports did exist, they would probably have corrected the errors in the newspapers and we wouldn't be talking about speculative notions that don't add up.