Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

Sorry Lynn but I'm not buying into the club members conspiring to lie about the time the body was discovered. Brown and Mortimer would seem to preclude that by being on the scene at awkward times; And why must we assume that Schwartz would be in league with the club hirarchy?

We have no evidence for that...what we do have though is an environment where if you pick ten people at random off the street, four of them are likely to be Jews...the vast majority of whom are leading quiet inoffensive lives like Israel Schwartz...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

You pays your money . . .

Hello Dave. Thanks.

You may buy what you like--it's your money (heh-heh)

Brown seems to have indicated that Liz was spotted around the time her fracas began with BSM.

Mortimer? Is she even reliable?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Mortimer reliable?

Hullo Lynn. I think so. At least to a certain extent. She is the only static individual on the street who has a view. I think she is reliable to the extent the she was in and out between 12:30-1:00. Nothing more. If something occured that she didn't witness then she was inside. The only thing that can be verified is when Goldstein passes through.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Brown seems to have indicated that Liz was spotted around the time her fracas began with BSM.

Mortimer? Is she even reliable?

Well I think Brown may be a minute or two out at 1245 (ish)....but he seems to have been sufficiently alert that he was aware when the balloon went up at 1 o'clock (ish)

I think Mrs Mortimer may've been maligned...The Daily News and London Evening News stories imply she was at the door for about ten minutes only...much more believable than the curiously similar accounts published in the Times, the Illustrated Police News and the East London Advertiser, which as I stated in post #159 just have to be some kind of agency feed..

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

I'm a little confused as to whether the Fixed Point policeman No 426H, had just finished his fixed point stint, (due to end at 1am), or was just coming up for it...either way the timings are approximate...they have to be in the LVP...

Hello Dave.

Stewart was kind enough to share two copies of different references with me of rules pertaining to the Fixed Point Duty, that it did indeed run from 9:00 pm until 1:00 am. PC Lamb was correct, but perhaps a misprint recorded the duty as from "9 to 5", it was 9 to 1.

The Times, 3rd Oct:
Witness. - I was not on the beat; but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called. When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. The constable who followed me down is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5 at the end of Grove-street. All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

It has been suggested that the duty may have been enhanced by four more hours (9 to 5) due to the recent crimes, but it is more likely just a misprint. In fact Insp. Reid confirms that Point Duty terminated at 1:00 am.

The Morning Advertiser, 3rd Oct, words it a little different:
Witness. - I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

So the constable who accompanied PC Lamb, that being Constable 426H, had just come off Point Duty at 1:00 am. They were both walking back westward towards Berner St. when they met the two witnesses.

From this we can only guess how many minutes the three constables may have chatted at Grove St. before Lamb & 426H walked back. You'll notice that in the Times we read it was "6 or 7 minutes" since PC Lamb passed the end of Berner St., in the Morning Advertiser we read "perhaps ten minutes" , so who knows.

[lynn cates]

Eygle eyes

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"I think so. At least to a certain extent."

So, she was unreliable to an extent?

Lave and Eygle claimed to be about during the period she was out. Did she see them?

Or did she see Liz chatting up parcel man? What about PC Smith?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Credo

Hello Dave. Thanks.

10 minutes I can believe.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Richard Nunweek and I have been discussing the Schwartz evidence. We know Israel Schwartz was Jewish...we also know that the Schwartz evidence has been frequently discredited on the grounds of "who moves house in the early hours of Saturday morning?"

We're surmising that maybe Schwartz and his wife were observant Jews and moved house, by religious necessity after nightfall on Saturday evening 29th September.

Neither of us can recall seeing this posited here before...apologies if someone else has spotted this

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

[QUOTE=Investigator;268757]

Totally Agree, C. D.

I do not subscribe the the BS-man being her killer, I can't rule it out totally because in all honesty I (we) simply do not know. But, the timing and the circumstances to me are all wrong.

Wik. Perhaps I can answer your queries on another thread, As Stewart remarks this is off target on this thread.
I'll leave it to you to start it - I'm not familiar with the procedure . Regards D.G.

You wish a thread to debate whether Broadshoulder man murdered Liz Stride?

Ok, I'll create one.

[Stephen Thomas]

Richard Nunweek and I have been discussing the Schwartz evidence. We know Israel Schwartz was Jewish...we also know that the Schwartz evidence has been frequently discredited on the grounds of "who moves house in the early hours of Saturday morning?"

If the blind leadeth the blind they fall into the ditch together.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

If the blind leadeth the blind they fall into the ditch together.

Yeah, but only if there be a ditch. Also, if there were enough blind people eventually the ditch would fill up and the following blind people could just walk over the ditched blind people. Problem solved.

[Cogidubnus]

If the blind leadeth the blind they fall into the ditch together.

Ok you've had your one permitted cheap personal dig...now try saying something remotely intelligent

All the best

Dave

[harry]

Schwartz says he turned into Berner Street from Commercial road at 12.45.So Brown,Stride and pipeman were at the other end of the street,Allowing a minute or two difference in the time given by Brown or/and Schwartz,enough time for the scene to change,for Stride,BS and Schwartz to be at the yard entrance,pipeman at the corner,Brown home and Mortimer indoors.Can't be any other way?

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Harry

As you say, given a minute or two...all the timings have to be viewed as approximate...The BS attack (whether it's the fatal one or not) happens very suddenly and abruptly doesn't it?

All the best

Dave

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
For the benefit of Steven, I should like to explain.
Dave and myself were discussing the Stride murder in chat, and the matter of Schwartz came about. and we had a theory which Dave explained earlier, which appears to give some added credence to his tale.
We were talking generally about witnesses throughout the case, and what, if any one, could be considered genuine.
The thread ''Was the killer a Jew'', which I started today, actually derived from that conversation.
You are of course welcome to crack jokes, at least on my part, after some 14 years with Casebook, my hide has thickened.
Regards Richard,