Who Was Anderson’s Witness?

[GBinOz]

One might also construe from that quote Wick that that the presumed killer that night who met the nickname qualifications went to Dutfields Yard after his kill in Mitre Square, and that he was known to the beat cop there. Which might suggest a cop came to Dutfields after the Mitre Square murder. We do in fact have a cop going into the east end after the 2nd murder.

Hi Michael,

Could you amplify, clarify and explain this post please. I can't make head nor tail of what you may be suggesting.

Cheers, George

[Michael W Richards]

If there was a witness who was a policeman who met a suspect face to face, it wasn't the Mitre Sq. murder, it was at Berner St. and the witness was PC Smith.
Mac had confused the two murders, as pointed out above, so what he should have wrote was:
"No-one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the PC who was on a beat near Dutfields Yard".....)

One might also construe from that quote Wick that that the presumed killer that night who met the nickname qualifications went to Dutfields Yard after his kill in Mitre Square, and that he was known to the beat cop there. Which might suggest a cop came to Dutfields after the Mitre Square murder. We do in fact have a cop going into the east end after the 2nd murder.

[Wickerman]

I would caution against dismissing the "City PC who got a glimpse of Jack" near Mitre [Court] as a confusion with the Dutfields Yard witness, PC Smith. We don't know exactly what Watkins saw after he left an empty Mitre Square, or what Harvey may have seen before he went down Church Passage.

Hmm, but we 'do' know what PC Smith saw, and we 'do' know Mac. confused details between the two murders.
You want to bet on what we don't know, or what we do know?

[Varqm]

Anderson already demonstrated that he could go his own way and ignore other witnesses, another "he only thought he knew", even though he was not qualified to assess it. In the Rose Mylett case ,5 doctors said she died of strangulation. Andersson disagreed and Bond, among the 5,did another post mortem without Baxter's permission - a violation, changed his mind and agreed with Andersson. Andersson did not commit officers to investigate it since he believed it was not murder. Baxter's verdict was murder.
Kind of weird.

[Varqm]

Hi Jon,

So do you discount White's report detailed in People's Journal on 27th September 1919:

“For five nights we had been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding, and persons entering the alley were under observation by the two men. It was a bitter cold night when I arrived at the scene to take the report of the two men in hiding. I was turning away when I saw a man coming out of the alley. He was walking quickly but noiselessly, apparently wearing rubber shoes, which were rather rare in those days. I stood aside to let the man pass, and as he came under the wall lamp I got a good look at him.
“He was about five feet ten inches in height, and was dressed rather shabbily, though it was obvious that the material of his clothes was good. Evidently a man who had seen better days. I thought, but men who had seen better days are common enough down East, and that of itself was not sufficient to justify me in stopping him. His face was long and thin, nostrils rather delicate, and his hair was jet black. His complexion was inclined to be sallow, and altogether the man was foreign. The most striking thing about him, however, was the extraordinary brilliance of his eyes. They looked like two luminous glow worms coming through the darkness. The man was slightly bent at the shoulders, though he was obviously quite young - about 33, at the most - and gave one the idea of having been a student or professional man. His hands were snow white, and fingers long and tapering.
Man With Musical Voice.
“As the man passed me at the lamp I had an uneasy feeling that there was something more than usually sinister about him, and I was strongly moved to find some pretext for detaining him; but the more I thought it over, the more was I forced to the conclusion that it was not in keeping with British police methods that I should do so. My only excuse for interfering with the passage of this man would have been his association with the man we were looking for, and I had no real grounds for connecting him with the murder. It is true I had a sort of intuition that the man was not quite right. Still, if one acted on intuition in the police force, there would be more frequent outcries about interference with the liberty of subject, and at that time the police were criticised enough to make it undesirable to take risks.
“The man stumbled a few feet away from me, and I made that an excuse for engaging him in conversation. He turned sharply at the sound of my voice, and scowled at me in a surly fashion, but he said ‘Good-night’ and agreed with me that it was cold.
“His voice was a surprise to me. It was soft and musical, with just a tinge of melancholy in it, and it was a voice of a man of culture - a voice altogether out of keeping with the squalid surroundings of the East End.
“As he turned away, one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. ‘Hello! what is this?’ he cried, and then he called in startled tones to me to come along.
“In the East End we are used to shocking sights, but the sight I saw made the blood in my veins turn to ice. At the end of the cul-de-sac, huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body. It was clearly another of those terrible murders I remembered the man I had seen, and I started after him as fast as I could run, but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of East End mean streets.”

There is that reference to the eyes that keeps popping up with BGB etc, but the description is also remarkably close to Francis Thompson.

Location sounds more like Mitre Square, but it was White who interviewed Packer at Berner St.

Cheers, George

What murder happened in a cul-de-sac? And why was'nt Sgt. White in the inquest of the victim's murder? I think this was an embellishment or he recollected wrong.
On the other hand one could theorize that the police had information from their detectives/beat officers, (excluding witnesses like Lawende) that were withheld from the inquests, like White's recollections of his experience bolded above and the City police witness who got a glimpse of jack. I think this is hard to believe.

[Scott Nelson]

If there was a witness who was a policeman who met a suspect face to face, it wasn't the Mitre Sq. murder, it was at Berner St. and the witness was PC Smith.
Mac had confused the two murders, as pointed out above, so what he should have wrote was:
"No-one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the PC who was on a beat near Dutfields Yard".....)

I would caution against dismissing the "City PC who got a glimpse of Jack" near Mitre [Court] as a confusion with the Dutfields Yard witness, PC Smith. We don't know exactly what Watkins saw after he left an empty Mitre Square, or what Harvey may have seen before he went down Church Passage.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

So do you discount White's report detailed in People's Journal on 27th September 1919:

[I]“For five nights we had been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding, and persons entering the alley were under observation by the two men. It was a bitter cold night when I arrived at the scene to take the report of the two men in hiding........

Hi George.

It's another one of those 'recollections', like memoirs we must ask how accurate is it?
I don't doubt the story being based on an actual event, and the suspect with notable eyes again, of course it could be the same BGB man.
However, where & when did this sighting occur?
There is nothing in the recollection to help us locate this story, but there is that opening sentence which refers to a - "bitter cold night".
The double murder was Sept. 30th, the weather was a mild 55F that night, and rained on and off. So it wasn't bitter cold, but it may have been in Dec., Jan, or Feb.

Based solely on that claim I would say White's recollection was not the double event.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Whatever the case, I'm fairly sure that Anderson & Swanson were not both lying or misinformed.

I can understand names of places and people getting muddled with the passage of time, but I'm confident there was an identification of a Jewish suspect. I also think the Seaside Home is far too specific for that to have not been true. The best attempt I've seen to square that statement was Chris's theory that they arranged for 'Kosminski' to be sent to a convalescence home as a patient for the ID, to protect him and his family from any possible reprisals.

Fair comment
Regards Darryl

[GBinOz]

If there was a witness who was a policeman who met a suspect face to face, it wasn't the Mitre Sq. murder, it was at Berner St. and the witness was PC Smith.
Mac had confused the two murders, as pointed out above, so what he should have wrote was:
"No-one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the PC who was on a beat near Dutfields Yard".....)

Hi Jon,

So do you discount White's report detailed in People's Journal on 27th September 1919:

“For five nights we had been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding, and persons entering the alley were under observation by the two men. It was a bitter cold night when I arrived at the scene to take the report of the two men in hiding. I was turning away when I saw a man coming out of the alley. He was walking quickly but noiselessly, apparently wearing rubber shoes, which were rather rare in those days. I stood aside to let the man pass, and as he came under the wall lamp I got a good look at him.
“He was about five feet ten inches in height, and was dressed rather shabbily, though it was obvious that the material of his clothes was good. Evidently a man who had seen better days. I thought, but men who had seen better days are common enough down East, and that of itself was not sufficient to justify me in stopping him. His face was long and thin, nostrils rather delicate, and his hair was jet black. His complexion was inclined to be sallow, and altogether the man was foreign. The most striking thing about him, however, was the extraordinary brilliance of his eyes. They looked like two luminous glow worms coming through the darkness. The man was slightly bent at the shoulders, though he was obviously quite young - about 33, at the most - and gave one the idea of having been a student or professional man. His hands were snow white, and fingers long and tapering.
Man With Musical Voice.
“As the man passed me at the lamp I had an uneasy feeling that there was something more than usually sinister about him, and I was strongly moved to find some pretext for detaining him; but the more I thought it over, the more was I forced to the conclusion that it was not in keeping with British police methods that I should do so. My only excuse for interfering with the passage of this man would have been his association with the man we were looking for, and I had no real grounds for connecting him with the murder. It is true I had a sort of intuition that the man was not quite right. Still, if one acted on intuition in the police force, there would be more frequent outcries about interference with the liberty of subject, and at that time the police were criticised enough to make it undesirable to take risks.
“The man stumbled a few feet away from me, and I made that an excuse for engaging him in conversation. He turned sharply at the sound of my voice, and scowled at me in a surly fashion, but he said ‘Good-night’ and agreed with me that it was cold.
“His voice was a surprise to me. It was soft and musical, with just a tinge of melancholy in it, and it was a voice of a man of culture - a voice altogether out of keeping with the squalid surroundings of the East End.
“As he turned away, one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. ‘Hello! what is this?’ he cried, and then he called in startled tones to me to come along.
“In the East End we are used to shocking sights, but the sight I saw made the blood in my veins turn to ice. At the end of the cul-de-sac, huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body. It was clearly another of those terrible murders I remembered the man I had seen, and I started after him as fast as I could run, but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of East End mean streets.”

There is that reference to the eyes that keeps popping up with BGB etc, but the description is also remarkably close to Francis Thompson.

Location sounds more like Mitre Square, but it was White who interviewed Packer at Berner St.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

If there was a witness who was a policeman who met a suspect face to face, it wasn't the Mitre Sq. murder, it was at Berner St. and the witness was PC Smith.
Mac had confused the two murders, as pointed out above, so what he should have wrote was:
"No-one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the PC who was on a beat near Dutfields Yard".....)

[The Baron]

Whatever the case, I'm fairly sure that Anderson & Swanson were not both lying or misinformed.

I can understand names of places and people getting muddled with the passage of time, but I'm confident there was an identification of a Jewish suspect. I also think the Seaside Home is far too specific for that to have not been true. The best attempt I've seen to square that statement was Chris's theory that they arranged for 'Kosminski' to be sent to a convalescence home as a patient for the ID, to protect him and his family from any possible reprisals.

Agree, but I believe them further, that the witness also unhesitatingly identified Kosminski, exactly as they told us.


If not, then this case is deemed forever unsolvable, and the day will come when someone will introduce the coroner Baxter as the most likely ripper and demand hanging him




The Baron

[Abby Normal]

Whatever the case, I'm fairly sure that Anderson & Swanson were not both lying or misinformed.

I can understand names of places and people getting muddled with the passage of time, but I'm confident there was an identification of a Jewish suspect. I also think the Seaside Home is far too specific for that to have not been true. The best attempt I've seen to square that statement was Chris's theory that they arranged for 'Kosminski' to be sent to a convalescence home as a patient for the ID, to protect him and his family from any possible reprisals.

i agree with you that the id took place. anderson and swanson provide too many details and impressions it made on them.

[Harry D]

yup i think similar but maybe something more along the line of lawende saying i think its him but i cant swear to it. over the years it became more positive an id in andersons mind.
he was iding suspects after that because the police trusted him and the id of koz wasnt definite.

Whatever the case, I'm fairly sure that Anderson & Swanson were not both lying or misinformed.

I can understand names of places and people getting muddled with the passage of time, but I'm confident there was an identification of a Jewish suspect. I also think the Seaside Home is far too specific for that to have not been true. The best attempt I've seen to square that statement was Chris's theory that they arranged for 'Kosminski' to be sent to a convalescence home as a patient for the ID, to protect him and his family from any possible reprisals.

[Darryl Kenyon]

What about the possibility of mistaken identity. Kos was actually Kaminsky...or Jacob Levy. Maybe Lawende wasn't the witness. What if Joseph Levy decided that since his cousin Jacob was in an asylum and couldn't be tried and hung, he felt more comfortable in identifying him. Both Kaminsky and Jacob Levy more closely fit the Anderson/McNaughten descriptions than Kosminski.

Who is best guess for the City PC witness - White?

Cheers, George

Hi George
I am not convinced there was a City PC witness. Although there could be a chance that a City PC saw someone he recognised near the murder scene. I think MM is misremembering City PC with City Police Witness.
If we look at the memorandum he quotes that the murderer was disturbed by three Jews driving up to the club in Berner St. This is probably a confusion with the three Jews passing Church passage - Lawende , Levy and Harris with Diemschultz .
I believe something similar happened with the City PC/City Witness.
Regards Darryl

[GBinOz]

What about the possibility of mistaken identity. Kos was actually Kaminsky...or Jacob Levy. Maybe Lawende wasn't the witness. What if Joseph Levy decided that since his cousin Jacob was in an asylum and couldn't be tried and hung, he felt more comfortable in identifying him. Both Kaminsky and Jacob Levy more closely fit the Anderson/McNaughten descriptions than Kosminski.

Who is best guess for the City PC witness - White?

Cheers, George