Who Was Anderson’s Witness?

[Trevor Marriott]

How? He couldn’t identify Stride, BS Man or Pipeman.

Precisely my point, yet today we see researchers formulationg theories around these witnessess and what they are alleged to have witnessed

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Joshua Rogan]

The location of her murder i.e, the gateway is not consistent with the other ripper murders

Not consistent with which other murders, Trevor? The one in the open street, or the backyard, or the corner of a square, or in a room? There is no consistency in the other murder locations, so in that sense this one is entirely consistent.

[Darryl Kenyon]

How? He couldn’t identify Stride, BS Man or Pipeman.

Hi Herlock
He gave a decent description of BS man [ Police Gazette Oct 19 ].
Regards Darryl

[Herlock Sholmes]

Potentially his evidence of identification was material to the inquest.

How? He couldn’t identify Stride, BS Man or Pipeman.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Wiggins,

Welcome to the forum.

If you read Schwartz's statement you will see that he thought he was witnessing a domestic, which he may very well have been. You may note that BSMan was not trying to push Stride into the yard but was trying to pull her out of the yard. She turned sideways and fell and screamed, but "not very loudly". This is not the description of woman who thought herself in danger from BSMan. If she then got up and walked away, there are three possibilties. BSMan, in a fit of rage, followed her and grabbed her from behind using her scarf, put her on the ground and cut her throat. Another possibilty is that BSMan walked away and Stride's companion from 11pm, Parcelman, was standing in the shadows and, seeing the domestic altercation that was witnessed by Scharwtz, took the opportunity to kill her and have the murder blamed on BSman. Third possibility is that Pipeman returned to scare off BSMan and ostensibly escort Stride to the safety of the Club, but killing her instead. Theories 2 and 3 afford the maximum possibility that the Stride murderer was also JtR.

Whatever deliberations are indulged have to include a theory on the whereabouts of Parcelman.

Cheers, George

I think people are trying to read too much into what Schwartz said especially as he was not called as a witness at the inquest and why was that? perhaps because his identification was not as accurate as researchers want to accept. Potentially his evidence of identification was material to the inquest. The coroner had the option to adjourn the inquest in order for Schwartz to be found and brought to the inquest, but that didnt happen so again it raises a aquestion mark about the accuracy and valiafity of what he actually saw.

It is written and accepted by researchers that the female he saw being assaulted was Stride but there is no evidence as to how that identification was made if it in fact was made or if in fact it was Stride.

There is no evidence to show excatly where that assault took place referred to

It has to be asked was Stride solicting in Berner Street and the assault witnessed was nothing more than her accosting someone who simply was not interested and pushed her away.

The location of her murder i.e, the gateway is not consistent with the other ripper murders, after all if it was the same killer why did he not take her, or why did she not lead him further down into the yard where it is more seculded and darker and quieter.

Don Rumbellow suggests that Stride was the victim of a domestic assault and I concur with him, and her b/f Michael Kidney must be a likely suspect especially as his inquest testimony conflicts with other witnesses testimony about when he last saw her alive.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Astatine211]

Joseph Lawende was most likely Anderson's witness.

Thanks George, Yes i did read that, and other variations of it. And nothing dissuades me that this wasn’t Jack the Ripper.

As for the domestic assault account from Schwartz, if you see a women being assaulted during the Autumn of terror, who you then find out later was actually killed by Jack the Ripper, but you did nothing about it...
Then i dont know about you but Im going to be doing some serious rationalisation to myself and I would have a pretty good arsenal of reasons for 1) Not raising the alarm, 2) intervening myself.

See it from a Yorkshire perspective for a tates of what Schwartz was up against.

Sheffield Evening Telegraph - Tuesday 02 October 1888







There is comparatively lacking details from the newspaper searches on this particular witness, as he was not there at the inquest, and that is why most reports mention the cartman as being the interrupter, but apparently there are some records of the police interview in the national archives so I will request.

AS for earlier comments on the location of the body, i read several reports from the inquest, she was found by gateway close to the spot Schwartz saw her,
so I dissuaded from the argument that he didnt have enough time to move her. We are talking a matter of a few feet.

[GBinOz]

Again this "attack" or "brutal attack" if you prefer consisted of a woman being pushed nothing more. You are interpreting it in light of her killing. Take it as a single incident not a prelude and it looks completely different.

Dragging Stride's body back into the yard would have left a blood trail and most likely evidence of something being dragged. This is never mentioned by the police.

c.d.

Hi Wiggins,

Welcome to the forum.

If you read Schwartz's statement you will see that he thought he was witnessing a domestic, which he may very well have been. You may note that BSMan was not trying to push Stride into the yard but was trying to pull her out of the yard. She turned sideways and fell and screamed, but "not very loudly". This is not the description of woman who thought herself in danger from BSMan. If she then got up and walked away, there are three possibilties. BSMan, in a fit of rage, followed her and grabbed her from behind using her scarf, put her on the ground and cut her throat. Another possibilty is that BSMan walked away and Stride's companion from 11pm, Parcelman, was standing in the shadows and, seeing the domestic altercation that was witnessed by Scharwtz, took the opportunity to kill her and have the murder blamed on BSman. Third possibility is that Pipeman returned to scare off BSMan and ostensibly escort Stride to the safety of the Club, but killing her instead. Theories 2 and 3 afford the maximum possibility that the Stride murderer was also JtR.

Whatever deliberations are indulged have to include a theory on the whereabouts of Parcelman.

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

yes lets just go with phantom rippers and desk jocky old cops. no thanks.
ill go with the man seen attacking the victim minutes before shes found murdered who fits all the other witness descriptions that night and the boots on the ground investigator who backed up those descriptions.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Again, I agree with c.d
If the chance of another assailant killing Liz other than broad shoulders was so minimal as to be virtually impossible a senior investigating officer like Swanson, who was there and knew the area, and the denizens wouldn't allow for the possibility that this was an assault/altercation and nothing more. Yet he does.

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

I am with c.d on this one.
Killing Liz in the street doesn't seem likely. Not only are there two witnesses, but he would have had to have missed the possibility that one of the members may have spotted the murder while looking out of the window of the club from upstairs down on to the street. There was still singing from the club, was he also oblivious to the noise ?
He was also lucky because he would have just missed Morris Eagle, Fanny Mortimer, Diemschultz, Goldstein or perhaps James Brown if Brown looked up the street.
Anyone of these could have witnessed a murder in the street and the body being dragged into the yard. They did not.
Regards Darryl

[c.d.]

Well let's try to think this through. Swanson has to determine if Schwartz saw a murder or simply saw a little street hassle. So you ask him to the best of your knowledge was Stride alive when you left. Obviously the answer is yes. There has to be some basis for Swanson making the statement that there is the possibility of another killer coming along. So even if it is speculation it is based on what he was told by Schwartz.

Again this "attack" or "brutal attack" if you prefer consisted of a woman being pushed nothing more. You are interpreting it in light of her killing. Take it as a single incident not a prelude and it looks completely different.

Dragging Stride's body back into the yard would have left a blood trail and most likely evidence of something being dragged. This is never mentioned by the police.

But after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man killing Stride wouldn't you think that his number one priority would be to flee as soon as possible but you have him dragging a dead body. Not a real smart move.

Cue cachous being spelled incorrectly as usual and chorus as well.

c.d.

Or equally possible, someone you were in that act of killing, he probably cut her throat in the yard after the initial blitz attack, otherwise blood would have been seen in the street? Either way the whole thing happened within 20 to 30 seconds and Schwartz happenend to see the start of it.

That's my interpretation I was not there, but that seems most likely to me, is all I'm saying.

[Abby Normal]

You need to read Swanson's report. This "violent assault" as you describe it is your interpretation of events but Schwartz only saw a woman being pushed. No more. She had to have been alive when Schwartz left the scene or Swanson would not have allowed for the possibility of another killer coming along. In other words, Swanson was speculating that Schwartz only saw a street hassle not a murder.

c.d.

exactly cd he was speculating. that dosnt mean she "had to be alive when schwartz left the scene".
he had no idea if schwartz killed her not, he was commenting on timeframes and other possibilities..thats all.

and wiggins is quite correct. all the evidence we have on stride is the attack amd then her being found dead with a cut throat. and hes also correct that it would be extraordinarily that she would be attacked by two seperate men in two seperate incidents right after each other.

how did she end up in the yard? oh i dont know, maybe after schwartz fled, bs man dragged her into the yard by her scarf and cut her throat. *

*cue cashoo courus

You could drag someone 20 feet into a dark place and it would take you less than 30 seconds, and that would be actually the sensible thing to do if that was someone you just killed.

As for Swanson, yes thanks I will read it. But as I said it seems very unlikely he leaves at after 0100hrs.