Elizabeth Prater

[Chava]

I don't know if it adds anything either way if Prater lived right above Kelly or partially above Kelly. However I'm interested to see in the drawings above that someone else might have lived right above Kelly. If that's the case, they would surely have been interviewed at the same time Prater was, so Stewart, do you have anything about that? If you don't, I will continue to believe that Prater lived either mostly or entirely above Kelly!

[Observer]

Hi

Richard is right, does it matter where Prater lived? The importance of Prater lies with what she saw and heard that morning.

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

The Flynn Conundrum

Even if some people think Sam Flynn has his head firmly stuck up his ass over this Prater business, I just want to say that I admire how he's handled himself while taking such a beating as he has on this thread. Even more troubling than the abuse he's received must be the knowledge that Perry Mason, Fisherman, and AP Wolf are firmly in his corner. I'd be inconsolable if I were him, so mucho props to Sam Flynn.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"...more troubling than the abuse he's received must be the knowledge that Perry Mason, Fisherman, and AP Wolf are firmly in his corner..."

You know, Tom, Sam seems to be able to handle most things that come along quite charitably, so I have a suspicion that he will deal with this just as nicely.
For your information, Tom, it was not the benefits of not having to camp with you that made my mind up on this matter - it was the fact that Sam actually has not taken any beating at all, as all sound-minded posters will recognize. Nor should he.

What, Tom, is you personal take on the fact that Prater was reported to live "almost" over Kelly? And the article that has her living "over the shed" - why did that come about in your humble opinion? Why was not more made by the papers out of the fact that she lived EXACTLY above Kelly; if she did indeed do so? Surely, you must agree that a good deal of those newspapers would pounce at the possibility to lead the readers to believe that Prater slept exactly over the place where Britains most ínfamous murder took place?
Why is it that no paper uses descriptions like "precisely over" or "exactly over", instead of the more vague "just above"; it is not as if the papers would try to play down their interview subject´s role, is it?

You know, Tom, you are a funny guy, I´ll give you that. It´s just that I can´t figure out which of the two funnies that apply from time to time.

The best!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Chava asks:

"I'm interested to see in the drawings above that someone else might have lived right above Kelly"

Chava, Sam has already mentioned it, but here it is again from the Daily Telegraph of Nov 10:
"The walls are of thin match lining, which makes this circumstance the more unaccountable, and the couple in the room overhead had slept soundly without being awakened by scuffling in the room beneath them."

...and that seems to be the only mentioning of somebody else than Prater living in one of the rooms "over" Kellys.

The best!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

For those who have not gone through the much debated article from the Daily Telegraph of November 10, it should be pointed out that it mentions the first floor front room at two separate occasions, first establishing it´s presence and exact whereabouts, and thereafter speaking of Prater as being the one who lived in it. Taken together, the case for the number 20 room being the one over the shed and inhabited by Elizabeth Prater is further strengthened.

These are the excerpts:

“In this court there are six houses let out in tenements, chiefly to women, the rooms being numbered. On the right-hand side of the passage there are two doors. The first of these leads to the upper floors of the house in which Kelly was living. It has seven rooms, the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows.”

and

“Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window.”

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

What, Tom, is you personal take on the fact that Prater was reported to live "almost" over Kelly? And the article that has her living "over the shed" - why did that come about in your humble opinion?

What's your take on Elizabeth Prater's own words at the inquest? Sorry, but I'm gonna have to put a lot more stock in a signed legal statement made by the woman herself. Am I wrong for doing so, Fish?

You know, Tom, you are a funny guy, I´ll give you that. It´s just that I can´t figure out which of the two funnies that apply from time to time.

You're asking if I'm funny ha ha or funny queer? Keep dreamin', Fish. I'm often the former, but never the latter. Sorry to disappoint.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

The November 10 Daily Telegraph report sounds fairly conclusive, yet later on the same day . . .

THE STAR—November 10 1888

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well, she told a Star reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which IS ALMOST OVER HERS.

She was about 23 years old. I have known her since July - since I came to lodge here. She was tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily. I saw her go out in the shell this afternoon, but the last time I saw her alive was at about nine o'clock on Thursday night. I stood down at the bottom of the entry, and she came down. We both stood talking a bit, thinking what we were going to do, and then she went one way and I went another. I went to see if I could see anybody." Mrs. Prater adds with frankness, "She had got her hat and jacket on, but I had not. I haven't got a hat or a jacket. We stood talking a bit about what we were going to do, and then I said, 'Good night, old dear,' and she said 'Good night, my pretty.' She always called me that. That," said Mrs. Prater, "was the last I saw of her." Then Mrs. Prater breaks down, and commences to sob violently. "I'm a woman myself," she says, "and I've got to sleep in that place to-night right over where it happened." Mrs. Prater saw the dead and mutilated body through the window of Kelly's room, which it is to be remembered was on the ground floor. The pump stands just by there, and Mrs. Prater took advantage of a journey for some water to peep through the window for which, when the door was broken open, the curtains were torn down. She says, "I could not bear to look at it only for a second, but I can NEVER FORGET THE SIGHT of it if I live to be a hundred."

The capitalizations are Star sub-heads.

I wish I knew the answer.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Tom,

What's your take on Elizabeth Prater's own words at the inquest?

Well, according to the apparently verbatim transcript of the inquest in the Telegraph, it's reported that Prater said "I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed". I know - that dratted Telegraph again! But this was in a separate edition of the paper, published three days after that of the 10th November placed her at first floor front.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to put a lot more stock in a signed legal statement made by the woman herself.

One might do well to ponder that the first page of official inquest record (as transcribed in the Sourcebook at least) states that Kelly's body was found in Room 1, Miller's-court, Shoreditch.

Just to observe that we need to be on our guard with the official documents as well.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:
"What's your take on Elizabeth Prater's own words at the inquest? Sorry, but I'm gonna have to put a lot more stock in a signed legal statement made by the woman herself. Am I wrong for doing so, Fish?"

It isn´t as if we have her taped, is it, Tom? "I lived in the room over the deceased" are the written words, signed by Prater, but - as has been stated before - "a" and "the" are very easily misheard for each other.
Moreover, if we offer the possibility that there were two rooms at the first floor, numbers 19 and 20, and if only Praters room was occupied at the time of the murder, then it would of course also make sense to say that she lived in the room over the deceased, no matter if she stayed in the front or the back room.

Once again I will also point you to the fact that each and every one of the papers that were present at the murder place would have thanked their lucky stars if Prater HAD been living exactly above Kelly, and subsequentially would have used it to elaborate on in every possible and impossible way.
But no, they instead start writing about "over the shed", "in the first floor front room" "almost above the room of the deceased", all of them pointing very clearly AWAY from their own favourite scenario.

I´m telling you, Tom, at that time, journalists could have been kicked out from a paper for less, if they were truly dealing with a witness who had slept through the night in a room EXACTLY above the victims!

Which is why I have not one but two answers for you on your question whether you are wrong or not for relying on the signed inquest papers:

Methodologically you are right. Feel free to indulge in it.

Practically, though, you are in all probability utterly and totally wrong.

Sam´s snippet on why you may want to be careful even with inquest material is very elucidating, by the way. Once you realize that though inquest material as a general rule is the best we have to go with, it should not be regarded as gospel, you must also accept that the newspaper material FROM DIFFERING SOURCES delivers a picture that shows us that Mrs Prater in all probability had a nice view of Dorset Street outside her window.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Simon!

Please note that Praters room tended to move that night, from "almost above" Kellys room, to "right over" it.

Quite strange, is it not ...?

My guess, though, given that Prater had seen Kellys mutilated corpse, something that gave her a terrible scare, is that even if Kellys room had been at the top floor above McCarthys shop, Prater would have felt that she was subsequentially staying in a room "right above" where Mary was killed.

Strong emotional experiences can make you feel that things draw closer to you, and if room 13 drew closer to Prater after that nightmare of an experience (which it seemingly did, given the discrepance between her own two descriptions of it´s lay in the same paper report), there is nothing strange about it. Just my take on it.

The best, Simon!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Sorry Simon; the wording "even if Kellys room had been at the top floor above McCarthys shop" should of course be changed to "even if PRATERS room had been at the top floor above McCarthys shop".

My slip, I´m afraid.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I´m telling you, Tom, at that time, journalists could have been kicked out from a paper for less, if they were truly dealing with a witness who had slept through the night in a room EXACTLY above the victims!

I'm beginning to get the impression I've read more contemporary newspaper reports than you have.

Regarding ANY material - inquest or not - where a person is relaying information, it should never been naively viewed as gospel. On this we agree. But when comparing a signed statement to a newspaper blurb that internally proves itself to be wholly unreliable, the choice should be an extremely easy one to make. If we're writing history, we really can't just pick and choose all our sources. Some we have to accept, for better or for worse, because of their provenance. A signed statement from someone is a primary source. A newspaper account is a secondary source. Do you disagree?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Snippets from Simons quoted statement.....

THE STAR—November 10 1888

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well, she told a Star reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which IS ALMOST OVER HERS."

Seems clear enough, she is saying that her room is in effect "adjacent" to Marys, but on the second floor.

..."She was about 23 years old".

Probably inaccurate

... "She was tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily".

Somewhat of a contrast to accounts that has her as average height and stout.

....... Mrs. Prater adds with frankness, "She had got her hat and jacket on, but I had not."

What Hat? Where is this hat? Mary Ann didnt mention a hat when she saw Mary with Blotchy. And since we have other witnesses that claim Mary hardly ever wore one, one wonders.

..... "I'm a woman myself," she says, "and I've got to sleep in that place to-night right over where it happened."

So...within the same statement, 2 variations on her rooms location...."almost" and "right over".

Regards,

Simon

With such inconsistency, in the records and the statements, a logical conclusion is that her room only partly was over Marys, but perhaps that part was roughly over the area where Marys bed was...."right over".

The window on the archway may have been an alcove in the hallway that allowed the voice to get to Mrs Prater.."as from the court".

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Agreed 100%, Tom. However, good provenance is not the same as accuracy, and neither does the one automatically guarantee the other. From what I can tell, Macdonald (and the jurors) signed that very piece of paper which reported that Kelly was murdered in "Room 1, Miller's-court, Shoreditch". If so, then even the signature of a learned man wouldn't appear to guarantee the accuracy of the preceding text.